Talk:Ann Lee (singer)

Correct birthdate?

[1] [2] These sites say she was born on the 12th of November, 1967.

Hennis2 (talk) 11:06, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

What the hell?

is this about?

who rose to fame near the turn from the 2nd millennium to the 3rd millennium.

new wiki policy? 129.67.127.117 23:51, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

ann lee vs. ann lee two people

Two People was actually sung by a different Ann Lee, who's youtube channel is found at www.youtube.com/user/Vipersword100. It wasn't Annerly Gordon. They don't even sound like the same person. same goes with the other songs from that album, it's all the Ann Lee born in 1989, who again is on youtube under the name vipersword100. Gordon wrote it, but Ann Lee provided vocals. This is a case of the John Smith syndrom.

Eric Ramus — Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.195.166.103 (talk) 07:20, 27 October 2015 (UTC)

Your link is a link to a completely different person’s YouTube channel and this person does not claim to be Ann Lee on her channel. Please read WP:OR and leave this person in peace.

What album? There are just two Ann Lee albums and neither of them contains the song “2 People”. Ann Lee was born in 1967 (her biographies say 1972, but according to birth records and someone who supposedly went to school with her, she was born in 1967), not 1989. In fact 1989 is supposed to be the year she moved to Italy. Gordon recorded numerous songs under various aliases before she became Ann Lee in the late 90s. The single “2 People”, like both of her albums and countless songs since 1990, is of course sung by Gordon. 188.149.135.223 (talk) 14:56, 17 November 2015 (UTC)

But vipersword100 celebrated her 48th birthday on November 12'th this year. seriously there, get your facts strait. Online chats reveal a lot you know, pluss I've known Annerley for years.

Eric Ramus

Arby's, we love Annerley Gordon! 199.195.166.103 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 04:25, 31 December 2015 (UTC)

whigfield

Wendy Seamus, who is one of the two people behind Ally and JO is actually the one who first mentioned this page to me back in June. I then became aware of the view that people have that Annerley is the actual singer behind Whigfield. Well, there's no proof either way, so therefore I deleted it from her coreer section. Also Wendy Seamus was working with Annerley Gordon on Ally and Jo, Wendy was Ally. If anything, it could have been argued that Wendy Seamus is actually the voice of Whigfield given that her voice is 100% identical to the voice heard in Last Christmas and other songs between 1995 and 2010. However, Wendy has deconfirmed that, so the credit to that goes to my good friend Sanny. Also you want Annerley Gordon? My above section is actually incorrect. vipersword100 is Annerley Gordon, confirmed. Tell me, does that sound like whigfield to you? And don't bring "try me out" up to me, I could have easily said that Wendy Seamus sung that one too, just because she was Ally in Ally and Joe and that she sounds like Whigfield did from "Last Christmas" in 1995 to "to feel alive" in 2010. You follow me? (or whatever Americans say?)

Eric Ramus — Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.202.5.143 (talk) 15:08, 13 November 2015 (UTC)

I do not follow you at all; honestly I do not know what your point is. Some hardcore Sannie Carlson fans (I know a couple of names, but it would be inappropriate to out them) desperately try to clear the Internet of the idea that Annerley Gordon is the real voice of the Whigfield project, so I would not be surprised if your edit is linked to that. It could be an attempt to advertise, but I doubt that, since there does not seem to be any people named Wendy Seamus. Except for a comment posted on a Whigfield / Annerley Gordon video on YouTube less than a week ago and some randomly generated test data, there is no information at all on Google about a Wendy Seamus. This person, who I doubt exists, is definitely not one of two people behind the Ally & Jo project. It is widely accepted that Annerley Gordon, who co-wrote several songs for the project, is the real singer or at least one of them. The other voice is thought to be Annerley Gordon too, though arranged in a way that creates an illusion of a duet. Samantha Boni is said to have contributed to some of the project’s songs as well (she also sings Red Velvet ‎– Into The Night). The project was fronted by two models (with Daniela Galli possibly being one of them) and the group probably dissolved due to the lip-syncing accusations.

A random girl’s YouTube channel does not belong to Annerley Gordon just because you say so. It is certainly not confirmed that this channel belongs to Gordon, so, once again, leave this youtuber alone.

About “Try Me Out”: this one was recorded in 1993, like Whigfield’s ”Saturday Night”, before Whigfield became popular. Gordon sang both tracks. In fact, Sannie Carlson was not even part of the Whigfield project yet and the first releases of Saturday Night had generic covers. When “Saturday Night” became a hit, Carlson (a model from Skælskør) was hired to front the project. Of course somebody soon discovered that the voice was familiar and apparently Carlson even left the stage in rage when she was accused of lip-syncing during a show. Rumor has it Corona’s version of Try Me Out (featuring Sandra Chambers) was recorded to make people forget about Lee Marrow’s version (featuring Gordon). People wondered why Carlson spoke with another voice and with Danish accent when the voice in the songs had no such accent at all. The accusations haunt Carlson to this date, even after a song partially in Danish (titled “Jeg kommer hjem”) was released under the Whigfield name (because the voice is not the same). According to an I Venti d'Azzurro producer, videos exist of Annerley Gordon recording ”Saturday Night”, “Another Day” and several other Whigfield tracks in 1993, 1994 and 1995. He has also met Gordon herself and the producers and spoken with them, but of course they can’t admit their “little” secret in public. The same goes for the Corona project: people thought and still think that Playahitty’s “The Summer Is Magic” is a Corona song because it and “The Rhythm of the Night” were both sung by Giovanna Bersola. Nobody would officially confirm that Sandra Chambers sang the rest of Corona’s two first albums, but it was as good as proven when Chambers re-recorded the song for the Swedish group Sunblock. People like Annerley Gordon, Sandra Chambers and Tom Hooker were highly sought after because English was their native language (Olga Souza of Corona was apparently not allowed to sing because of her accent, not her voice). That of course applied to Italians who spoke English without noticeable accent too, like Giovanna Bersola and Clara Moroni.

Even though it has never been confirmed officially in public that Annerley Gordon is Whigfield’s real voice, the idea is supported by numerous third party sources. Your theories, however, lack that kind of backup, so I reverted your edit per WP:OR. 188.149.135.223 (talk) 14:56, 17 November 2015 (UTC)

Please add those third party sources. At the moment there is no reference for the various acts listed in the first paragraph. Neither does the WP:LEDE expanded on her contributions. Some very serious BLP issues here. Karst (talk) 15:59, 17 November 2015 (UTC)

I agree, but I don’t have the time or interest of rewriting the paragraph/article myself. All I did was to revert an edit that was obviously wrong, I did not add any information to the article. My previous post is written entirely from my memory. Since this is a talk page and not an article, I did not bother spending the entire afternoon to find sources for information that I read a long time ago.

I still do not bother spending the rest of the day looking for sources for something I did not write, but I’ll write what I can think of at the moment, in case someone wants to do the work. You will only find sources that support the theory, none that provide definite proof, so if it were up to me the theory would have been presented as a theory and not as a fact. Mark of I Venti d’Azzurro (iventi.net) was the one who claimed (on eurobeat-prime.com) that video evidence exists, so if one wants to find the videos, he would be the first to ask. Among the sources that mention the theory are this one and Annerley Gordon’s biography at The Eurodance Encyclopædia. I have not actively collected sources, but I know I have seen this theory being repeated by lots of people over the years (in comment sections and forums as well as other texts). A detailed text on the issue is this forum post on Discogs (TL;DR: controversial issue, official story has holes / is not trustworthy, likening with Milli Vanilli, edit war).

About the other acts: these were added with an edit from a person who claims to be Annerley Gordon herself (maybe it is, maybe not), just search the article history for “I WAS BORN IN 72 THANK YOU VERY MUCH!!!!” to find the correct IP address. She did multiple edits. Sites that support these claims are eurokdj.com (see the bios of both Gordon and the mentioned acts) and discogs.com. 188.149.128.78 (talk) 18:25, 17 November 2015 (UTC)

None of those are Reliable sources I'm afraid, and if she has edited the page herself then there is a Conflict of Interest. I will remove the Whigfield reference in relation to vocal performances. Unless it has been established in publications such as Billboard or MusicWeek that she indeed has performed the vocal parts, then this is a possible legal issue and cannot be included. Karst (talk) 18:59, 17 November 2015 (UTC)

Exactly; it all happened 10-20 years ago, so the theories survive mostly in forums and on fansites. These are indeed third party sources, but they do not meet the reliability requirements of an encyclopedia (except Eurodance Encyclopædia of course, which is a fan-made database and not really an encyclopedia). Removing the reference is the best solution until something trustworthy shows up. Only the involved people know the truth, and if they are ever going to change the official story, my guess is that it will not happen while the Whigfield project is still active (which it is). If I happen to stumble upon a decent source, I will put it here, but I will not be actively looking for one. 188.149.134.171 (talk) 02:08, 28 November 2015 (UTC)

It is comfirmable that vipersword100 is indeedAnnerley Gordon. HOw can we prove this? Well theysound exactly the same. Listen to their voices. They're also both from the same area of England All Be it different cities so therefore they're the same.

no? I'm wrong? well then why do you people get to use that lojic to prove that Sanny is not whigfield's singer, and yet I can't use the exact same logic that Vipersword100 is actually Annerley Gordon. Oh, there's actually evidence that vipersword100 is Annerley Emma Gordon, but you have to ask the right people. I don't have time to find you links and that, but it's ture. I'm not making it up, I swear on my honor as a Mancunian that Vipersword100 is Annerley Emma Gordon, or a Mancunian user will shut me down after leaving me proof that the admin is 100% Mancunian.

Eric Ramus Fly with westjt 199.195.166.103 (talk) 00:03, 26 November 2015 (UTC)r

We can’t, that is the point. Karst asked me to find sources or he/she would have to remove the statement from the article. I have no interest in doing because I know that most of the source material does not meet Wikipedia’s requirements. Therefore Karst removed the claim, which was the correct thing to do. Regardless of belief, the rules of Wikipedia must prevail.

My argument is that this is not a theory that some random person just added to the article, it came from somewhere. I could find you lots of forum threads, personal websites and fan sites where the theory is mentioned, but no official confirmation. These are not sources that are good enough for Wikipedia anyway, so why bother? I see that you are trying to mock my argument, but I have to say the Annerley Gordon theory has considerably larger support than your theory. I provided some leads in case someone wanted to hunt down the proofs. About asking the right people: I was just referring to a post in this forum: “I've been in the studios in Italy, have spoken with the producers and even with Annerley. Have even seen a video of Annerley recording "Another Day" in the studio.” If one wants to find proof, it is logical to start by asking the guy who claims to have seen it, especially since the guy works for a company that has remixed alleged Annerley Gordon songs.

You claim that “we” have based our theory only on comparing the voices. That is not true. In addition to the identical voices, we know this:

• Carlson has a heavy Danish accent and her other project, Naan, features a different voice than the Whigfield project (whoever sings has a perfect English pronunciation).
• Whigfield was supposedly named after Carlson’s piano teacher. That’s weird, since the wh- sound does not exist in the Danish language at all (its cognate is hv-). The closest real name I can think of is Huitfeldt.
• Gordon contributed to the project as a songwriter. You can confirm that by looking up the IPI code 184175752 in the Archivio opere musicali at Società italiana degli autori ed editori (siae.it) if you like
• The label and production team have a history of not crediting the singer on their releases. Singers like Sharon May Linn and Marilena Crisci have both given their vocals to Energy Production without being credited on the releases. Unlike them, Gordon has not yet claimed that she has sung anything else than the Ann Lee songs.
• The label and production team have lied before, so why not lie again? Ann Lee’s biography said that she was born in 1972, but birth records show that she in fact was born in 1967.
• The song “Try Me Out”, which was one of the songs where Gordon’s voice sounded the most like Whigfield’s, was conveniently re-released by the successful Corona project (which itself has been proven to be another lip-sync project) when the accusations first appeared.
• Gordon and Carlson fit the formula: a real singer doing the work and a model fronting the project. Radiorama, Den Harrow, Corona, Black Box, TH Express, J.K., Antares, Fourteen 14 etc. Most of these projects had multiple singers, but only one model.

Based on this, the hypothesis came to be, but we still lack the definite proofs. What are your proofs, except the similar voices? (I can’t even hear the similarity, but that’s just me) 188.149.134.171 (talk) 02:08, 28 November 2015 (UTC)

Well, given that i know one of the parties in my vipersword100 argument, and it's not vipersword100 that I know, I can state that the claim that vipersword100 is actually Annerley is false. I honestly hope that next time you see Annerley you ask her about her old friend Eric. But tell you what, i'll again sit down with Ann and we'll chat about the 90's. You never know, y old friend may have a few tidbits that may uncover this whole whigfield thing that i can send to reputable sources.

I used the voice comparison because that's the main comparison that people give. I get that people make a plethora of claims but like I said, untill Annerley tells me otherwise, i'm going to have to go with the idea that all those forum posts and claims by people from the studio are false.

You never know, when I go back to England, I'll see if i can zip down and see her in Italy again, and we'll have a chat. That is assuming she doesn't come and see me first.

Remember people, I have withheld a lot of information about Annerley because it isn't sourced. For example, she actually started her singing back in the 1980's, around 1984, the same year I was born.

Oh, and that she actually prefers her name not to be out there too much.

Or maybe that she laughs at all of you people who claim that she's whigfield's singer.

But maybe i know a fake Annerley Emma Gordon, who's birthday I celebrated on skype with her on the 12th of this month.

Maybe the woman I've known for nereley as long as I've been alive (we've known eachother since I was 3 years old) is a fake.

Maybe my whole existance is fake, and wikipedia doesn't exist either.

maybe I'm th eonly thing in this world...

Rambling asside, I'm sure that Annerley would have mentioned it to me if she was Whigfield, as I've brought it up to her quite a few times in the past 15 years.

Yeah, there's a reason why I withheld any information from you for a bit, because I wanted for you to try to defend yourself with that.

Vipersword, Annerley and I know that my claim about Vipersword being Annerley is false, and Annerley and I know that while she did write songs for Whigfield, she did not sing them.

Whigfield soddns different later on because her voice changes over the years. naan sounds different because the songs she recorded under that name were done anywhere from 9 to 16 years after Saturday Night was released, and her latest album was 27 years after saturday night was released. Peoples voices change over time.

If these people have video of my old friend that neither of us know about, then why don't they post it somewhere where we can view it whenever we want? why do we have to ask them for the proof?

Who do i believe? Someone who claims to have the video evidence but won't show it when I do? or a friend tha tI've known since I was 3?

I'll let you decide that one and whether o rnot you believe me.

PS, I'm actually sending this discussino to Ann on skype right now. It's early in the morning back home in UK and also in Italy, but I told her that as soon as she e-mails me, this will be sent to her.

maybe she will way in here, maybe she won't.

We'll see.

Now stop reading this and start believing me, or not if you don't want to, it's up to you.

I hope you make the right choise though.

Eric Ramus

199.195.166.103 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 05:14, 28 November 2015 (UTC)

If the artist themselves have any concerns about the article they can post it here, on the Talk page. Editing the page themselves is strongly discouraged. On the whole, this entire discussion contains much speculation and has very little substance to it - no matter what the pov. Unless it is indicated that she performed the vocal parts for Whigfield in reliable sources I cannot see how it can be added. She might well have performed them, but unless these is official confirmation somewhere I cannot be added. And Eric, please remain WP:CIVIL - adding those hashtags was not required. Karst (talk) 09:00, 28 November 2015 (UTC)

You and The Red Pen of DOom are missing my point though. I'm saying exactly what you're saying, minus the "she may verry well have performed them" part. I'm saying that there are no reliable sources so therefore it can't b eoncluded That's why I originally made that edit earlier this month. True there is little sourcing for Wendy Seamus being th esecond voice in Ally and Jo, and I understood when that part was removed. NO reliable source to support that, even though it's true. Likewise, there's no reliable source to support the Annerley Gordon signs WHigfield argument. Forums, discussion boards, having to go to certain people and such does not a reliable source make.

Eric Ramus 199.195.166.103 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 14:43, 28 November 2015 (UTC)

Your replies are confusing me, but somehow I feel more interested in investigating this issue. Well, maybe later, I am not going to Cremona in the foreseeable future and I am tired of sending emails to record labels without receiving replies. I believe that you are right about Ann Lee being a shy person who does not want to have her name all over (even if it turns out you just made that up): I heard her song “2 Times” when I was little and thought it was a one-hit-wonder, 10-15 years would pass until I discovered that she has written hundreds if not thousands of songs … PS. If you do happen to know her (the world isn’t that big after all), feel free to invite her to this discussion. That sure would have been an interesting experience. 188.149.129.29 (talk) 05:08, 29 November 2015 (UTC)

I shall do that, I'll see what I can do. The point I'm making is that having to contact people for video proof is not reliable enough for Wikipedia. For one, that person will get flooded with e-mails to the point where they may as well just put it on youtube. For two how do we know that they aren't fudging the video? Remember, there are programs out there that can do that. and Finally How do we know that the person is even telling the truth when they say that they have video proof of Ann singing Saturday Night or any other Whigfield songs. Maybe they just hate Whigfield's songs and want to find some reason to defame hhem. Remember, just a few years prior to Saturday Night the whole Milli Vanilli thing turned out to be a fake scam, and people reacted angrily twards the two men. Also around the time was the Black Box and Martha Wash thing too. HOw do we know that this person who says they have proof that Whigfield is fake isn't just someone who wants to see Whigfield fall for no other reason than they simply don't like her songs? Now I'm going to cover the plethora of forums and discussion boards out there: Say I start a page that says "Taylor swift is actually sung by Tori Webster!" I go into these things bringing up how Taylor sounds different in her speaking voice (she really doesn't but go with it) and how Tori Webster is a good singer, and such and such, etc. How can you be sure that I'm not just lying to get attention or to demote Taylor Swift? Even if I present my arguments professionally with links to videos of the two, and claim that I know someone with video proof and that all you need to do is send them an e-mail and they'll provide proof of Tori Webster Singing and playing th eguitar for Love Story by Taylor Swift. For all you know, I could be making the whole thing up. The same can be said with these forums on places like Discogs about Ann Lee being Whigfield. the Annerley Gordon Fanpage on facebook isn't a fanpage at all. I showed it to Ann and she isn't a fan of that fanpage one bit. She's glad that people like her music, but both of us think that this has gotten out of hand. Anyway: Because of how easy it is to falsify stuff in forums, they do not qualify as reliable sources. Evidence must eithe rbe repeatable or indisputed in order for it to be reliable. Wikipedia has these standards for a good reason, so they don't end up publishing false information. And that's why we can't assume or use the things on the internet to proof that Annerley is Whigfield. By the way, she'snot.

Eric Ramus

Arby's, we have pepsi!

199.195.166.103 (talk)

I have a question to you, Ramus: Have you ever looked at Annerley Gordons OWN WEBPAGE? https://annerleymusic.com/discography.php She is literally listing every Whigfield single. And if you would know anything about the Eurobeat/Italo-Dance scene of the 1990s, you would know that mostly the people who wrote the songs also sang it and only put a model for lipsyncing in the video, so that they could make music with many different aliases. But well what do I expect from a wikipedia, that calls the success Annerley Gordon had with Eurobeat as "some Eurobeat singles", while she was until 1994 together with Clara Moroni dominating the whole genre on the female voice side... She sold MORE Eurobeat stuff than Eurodance. 2001:9E8:E908:4000:A8C9:7B0F:56B:7EA4 (talk) 00:56, 30 May 2022 (UTC)

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Correct Website? Is there one?

The infobox points here, the References section points somewhere else, neither site seems to have any content whatsoever. Should we maybe take them out? LambdaTotoro (talk) 12:13, 17 December 2022 (UTC)

Checking back, now exactly one of them is in use, so I entered that in both places in the main article. LambdaTotoro (talk) 14:43, 26 January 2023 (UTC)