Talk:Anglo-Saxons/Archive 7
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History section length
The history section seems quite large and detailed given that we already have an article dedicated to the history at History of Anglo-Saxon England. Would it be prudent to merge most or all of the history here into that article in order to let this article focus on the socio-cultural aspects of Anglo-Saxon life? Ltwin (talk) 02:57, 5 July 2023 (UTC)
- Yes, this article is just too big, and, especially for the later periods, the history coverage here seems more detailed than that at History of Anglo-Saxon England. Perhaps some straight swopping of sections should be done. I do think there should be a substantial history sections here. Johnbod (talk) 03:08, 5 July 2023 (UTC)
- I agree that the article is much too big. It is over 18,000 words. The history coverage in both articles seems sometimes random in what is covered. I will try to work on the History of Anglo-Saxon England article once I have finished the projects I am working on, but this will be very long term. So far as this article is concerned, I suggest deleting the history and changing the title to Anglo-Saxon culture and society. Dudley Miles (talk) 12:46, 5 July 2023 (UTC)
- Oh, I'd be very strongly against that! Much of the history here seems at least as good quality, and bigger in quantity, as the equivalent parts in the "history" article. We need an article just called "Anglo-Saxons", and this will get far higher views than anything titled "History of ..." or "... culture and society". Johnbod (talk) 14:51, 5 July 2023 (UTC)
- I do agree that the coverage and takes of the two articles are often rather different, with more cultural material here than the "history" article. This would seem to make a merge rather easier. For example there is a large section on the aftermath and "legacy" of 1066 here, and nothing there. Johnbod (talk) 15:02, 5 July 2023 (UTC)
- The History of Anglo-Saxon England is pretty much the Political History of Anglo-Saxon England. I am not sure that Christianisation, the Heptarchy, Danegeld and language sit particularly well there! They should probably be trimmed a bit or moved here. I think that the History section here goes into a lot more detail and covers more subjects. If the political history is moved out leaving just the cultural history will that shrink the History section enough? Wilfridselsey (talk) 16:23, 5 July 2023 (UTC)
- I'm rather puzzled by this, frankly. You say "The History of Anglo-Saxon England is pretty much the Political History of Anglo-Saxon England", then seem to complain that it isn't as it has other stuff, & some of that should be moved here. Why on earth don't "Christianisation, the Heptarchy, Danegeld and language sit particularly well there"? That seems an indefensibly narrow conception of "history", against all contemporary trends. I agree that "the History section here goes into a lot more detail and covers more subjects", but I don't think "de-politicizing" the "history" here is an answer. Nor do I think anything much can be moved here, as it is so much too long already. This is the main article for the topic, and following our normal editorial practices should summarize all the significant sub-articles, which certainly includes the political history. It should not just "focus on the socio-cultural aspects of Anglo-Saxon life". Johnbod (talk) 16:55, 5 July 2023 (UTC)
- I take Johnbod's argument that an overarching article is useful, but I doubt whether this can be done satisfactorily within Wikipedia's size limit. There are many different articles on aspects of the Anglo-Saxons, and Anglo-Saxons would be more helpful to readers as a disambig pointing readers to the particular aspect they are interested in. The history section in this article could be merged into the history of ASE article. Dudley Miles (talk) 17:11, 5 July 2023 (UTC)
- "Christianisation, the Heptarchy, Danegeld and language" are more cultural whereas most of ASE is political. I was not suggesting that we lose them, just move them here. In return move the political history the other way. But as Dudley says that will not shrink the AS article enough. Wilfridselsey (talk) 17:47, 5 July 2023 (UTC)
- (ec) I don't see how the Heptarchy could be more political! And the largely top-down (at least at the start) Christianisation was highly political. I'm not sure what was "cultural" about Danegeld. Both articles cover the full political history, in different fashions, so either a careful merge or swops are needed. But I reject this narrow conception of "history", as I'm sure historians would. Johnbod (talk) 04:03, 6 July 2023 (UTC)
- Johnbod I probably used too much brevity trying to simplify my point? Anyway the ASE is mainly about battles and political succession. The entire History of Anglo-Saxon England (excluding references) is actually smaller than the history section here, around 900 words by my calculation! I do not have fixed views on this, I just want the best solution. It is a large body of work to fix this, we therefore we need a few ideas how best to do it. It seems to me the same is true of most people contributing to this discussion. Wilfridselsey (talk) 08:55, 6 July 2023 (UTC)
- (ec) I don't see how the Heptarchy could be more political! And the largely top-down (at least at the start) Christianisation was highly political. I'm not sure what was "cultural" about Danegeld. Both articles cover the full political history, in different fashions, so either a careful merge or swops are needed. But I reject this narrow conception of "history", as I'm sure historians would. Johnbod (talk) 04:03, 6 July 2023 (UTC)
- I'm rather puzzled by this, frankly. You say "The History of Anglo-Saxon England is pretty much the Political History of Anglo-Saxon England", then seem to complain that it isn't as it has other stuff, & some of that should be moved here. Why on earth don't "Christianisation, the Heptarchy, Danegeld and language sit particularly well there"? That seems an indefensibly narrow conception of "history", against all contemporary trends. I agree that "the History section here goes into a lot more detail and covers more subjects", but I don't think "de-politicizing" the "history" here is an answer. Nor do I think anything much can be moved here, as it is so much too long already. This is the main article for the topic, and following our normal editorial practices should summarize all the significant sub-articles, which certainly includes the political history. It should not just "focus on the socio-cultural aspects of Anglo-Saxon life". Johnbod (talk) 16:55, 5 July 2023 (UTC)
- The History of Anglo-Saxon England is pretty much the Political History of Anglo-Saxon England. I am not sure that Christianisation, the Heptarchy, Danegeld and language sit particularly well there! They should probably be trimmed a bit or moved here. I think that the History section here goes into a lot more detail and covers more subjects. If the political history is moved out leaving just the cultural history will that shrink the History section enough? Wilfridselsey (talk) 16:23, 5 July 2023 (UTC)
- I do agree that the coverage and takes of the two articles are often rather different, with more cultural material here than the "history" article. This would seem to make a merge rather easier. For example there is a large section on the aftermath and "legacy" of 1066 here, and nothing there. Johnbod (talk) 15:02, 5 July 2023 (UTC)
- Oh, I'd be very strongly against that! Much of the history here seems at least as good quality, and bigger in quantity, as the equivalent parts in the "history" article. We need an article just called "Anglo-Saxons", and this will get far higher views than anything titled "History of ..." or "... culture and society". Johnbod (talk) 14:51, 5 July 2023 (UTC)
- I agree that the article is much too big. It is over 18,000 words. The history coverage in both articles seems sometimes random in what is covered. I will try to work on the History of Anglo-Saxon England article once I have finished the projects I am working on, but this will be very long term. So far as this article is concerned, I suggest deleting the history and changing the title to Anglo-Saxon culture and society. Dudley Miles (talk) 12:46, 5 July 2023 (UTC)
Perhaps the best thing to do for now would be to Wikipedia:Summary style the History section. Each of the current sections (Early, Middle, Late, and Post-Conquest) should shortened to include only the most important information with the more detailed information incorporated into the History of ASE article. So, for this article we would have 1 History section with 4 subsections. Ltwin (talk) 04:00, 6 July 2023 (UTC)
- That's actually a considerably job, if done properly. And we ciurrently don't seem to have much agreement about what "the most important information" is. Johnbod (talk) 04:03, 6 July 2023 (UTC)
Maybe the way we've split these articles was a bit unclear from the beginning. Basically, this is a history topic, so the "History of" sub article does not really distinguish a separate topic. Perhaps it was someone's idea that the history article should be something like a chronological account of specific events and turning points? In terms of practical ways forward one possible approach is to merge (or merge in an experimental sandbox) and then see which chunks don't fit easily? It could be that we need one main article and several spin offs.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 07:17, 6 July 2023 (UTC)