Talk:Angelo Flavio Comneno

Albanian?

"The Angelo Flavio Comneno or Angeli[a] family were an Italian noble family of Albanian[4] descent who claimed descent from the Angelos dynasty of the Byzantine Empire."

"The Angeli claimed to be direct male-line descendants of Emperor Isaac II Angelos (r. 1185–1195 and 1203–1204),[5][b] whom they also claimed was a direct descendant of Constantine the Great (r. 306–337).[5]"

Meanwhile: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angelos "The Angelos family (/ˈændʒəloʊs/; Greek: Ἄγγελος), feminine form Angelina (Ἀγγελίνα), plural Angeloi (Ἄγγελοι), was a Byzantine Greek noble lineage which rose to prominence through the marriage of its founder, Constantine Angelos, with Theodora Komnene, the youngest daughter of Emperor Alexios I Komnenos. As imperial relatives, the Angeloi held various high titles and military commands under Emperor Manuel I Komnenos. In 1185, following a revolt against Andronikos I Komnenos, Isaac II Angelos rose to the throne, the first of three Angeloi emperors who ruled until 1204. The period was marked by the decline and fragmentation of the Byzantine Empire, culminating in its dissolution by the Fourth Crusade in 1204."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constantine_the_Great "Constantine I (Latin: Flavius Valerius Constantinus; Greek: Κωνσταντῖνος Konstantinos; 27 February c. 272 – 22 May 337), also known as Constantine the Great, was Roman emperor reigning from 306 to 337. Born in Naissus, Dacia Mediterranea (now Niš, Serbia), he was the son of Flavius Constantius (a Roman army officer born in Dacia Ripensis[7] who had been one of the four emperors of the Tetrarchy). His mother, Helena, was Greek and of low birth."

Something doesn't add up here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Boogyman12341231 (talk • contribs) 03:00, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

What doesn't add up? Every reliable source refers to the early members of this family as being Albanian, but they also claimed (unverified) descent from the earlier Byzantine family. Ichthyovenator (talk) 09:06, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

They claim descent to earlier Byzantine Greek families yet are Albanian? Also, there's one source cited in this article to prove that and it's from one book. Do we have any primary sources proving their origin, perhaps? Boogyman12341231 (talk) 18:03, 20 January 2022 (UTC)

@Boogyman12341231: This is pretty ridiculous. Their Albanian descent is cited to a reliable source, which also outlines their origin in Albania and their relationship to other prominent Albanian families. Other sources also call them Albanian (1). There are no sources that call them anything else (unless you can provide any?). They claim descent to earlier Byzantine Greek families yet are Albanian? - why would this be strange? They claimed Greek descent, probably an invented lineage, but the earliest known members were from Albania and had clearly Albanian names (Andres Engjëlli). Should the Italian impostor Gian Antonio Lazier be regarded as Greek because he fabricated Byzantine descent? Ichthyovenator (talk) 18:17, 20 January 2022 (UTC)

It's not ridiculous to ask for primary sources from his time period, but each to their own, I guess.

and had clearly Albanian names (Andres Engjëlli) The article mentions their hellenised and latinised variants. What I'm wondering is what the Byzantine sources say about the earliest member of the family. Boogyman12341231 (talk) 18:26, 20 January 2022 (UTC)

@Boogyman12341231: It's ridiculous to dispute a sourced statement without sources of your own. Byzantine sources say nothing about the family because this Albanian family first appears circa 1480, 27 years after the fall of the Byzantine Empire. The Angelos family was Greek, the Angelo Flavio Comneno family were Albanians unverifiably claiming descent from them. Ichthyovenator (talk) 18:35, 20 January 2022 (UTC)

Just because someone is sourced, that doesn't mean that the source is also correct. How is it a trustworthy source? Does it refer to any primary sources of its own from the time to prove any origin? I didn't tell you that I have sources of my own, but if there are no sources regarding his origin, then isn't that simply an assumption? Boogyman12341231 (talk) 18:37, 20 January 2022 (UTC)

@Boogyman12341231: Just because someone is sourced, that doesn't mean that the source is also correct it is sourced in the article and I also gave you another source that says the same thing. If no other sources say something different why would we change it? The cited source establishes that Andres Engjëlli had an Albanian name, was active in Albania, married an Albanian noblewoman, had a son who was a priest in Albania and was an associate of the Albanian Skanderbeg. Unless you can back up the idea that they were for some reason not Albanian to a reliable source of your own there is no case here.

Are you confusing this family with the Byzantine Angelos family from which they claimed descent? At no point is that family claimed to be Albanian. Ichthyovenator (talk) 18:42, 20 January 2022 (UTC)

When something's established in historiography, it's based on primary sources; verifiable, concrete facts (as much as they can be of course). Because of this, I'm simply wondering which sources from that specific time period use the Albanian variant of the name or claim that they were of ethnic Albanian descent.

married an Albanian noblewoman If you're referring to Dorothea Arianiti, I'd like to know which Byzantine source verifies their ethnic origin, because we're talking about a Byzantine noble family, in this case. Boogyman12341231 (talk) 19:04, 20 January 2022 (UTC)

@Boogyman12341231: Wikipedia generally does not follow primary sources, but reliable secondary sources. Every detail of the early lives of the members of this family demonstrates that they were Albanians. They lived in Albania and were integrated into the local nobility and aristocracy. You have admitted yourself that you do not have any sources that state that they were of some other ethnicity. What reason would there be to dispute that they were Albanian? The Arianiti family were an Albanian noble family. I don't know why you're asking for Byzantine sources since the family described in this article was active only after the Byzantine Empire fell. Ichthyovenator (talk) 19:18, 20 January 2022 (UTC)

Ichthyovenator is correct as there are multiple sources which describe this family as Albanian, both modern secondary and primary sources. Wikipedia doesn't follow the same nomenclature throughout all articles which are related to the subject e.g. only knowledgeable readers will realize that Pal Engjëlli who wrote one of the first texts in Albanian was a member of this family. The family didn't even have an actual relation to the Byzantines Angelos. Their original claim is that they took the name because one of their members was married to a woman who had a kin relation to the Angelos.--Maleschreiber (talk) 00:03, 10 October 2022 (UTC)