Talk:Aneurin Bevan/GA1

GA Review

Article (edit | visual edit | history) · Article talk (edit | history) · Watch

Reviewer: Amitchell125 (talk · contribs) 10:58, 16 October 2019 (UTC)

Happy to review this article. Amitchell125 (talk) 10:57, 16 October 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for picking this up Amitchell125, this article is a step outside my comfort zone so apologies if there's anything obvious that needs fixing. Look forward to your comments. Kosack (talk) 11:39, 16 October 2019 (UTC)

Assessment

I will add comments a section at a time, and let you know when I have completed the review. Amitchell125 (talk) 10:33, 23 October 2019 (UTC)

Good Article review progress box Criteria: 1a. prose () 1b. MoS () 2a. ref layout () 2b. cites WP:RS () 2c. no WP:OR () 2d. no WP:CV () 3a. broadness () 3b. focus () 4. neutral () 5. stable () 6a. free or tagged images () 6b. pics relevant () Note: this represents where the article stands relative to the Good Article criteria. Criteria marked are unassessed

Lead section/infobox

The lead section would benefit from the following points being added, as at present it does not yet summarise the main points (see MOS:LEAD for where I am coming from):

• was seen by his employers as a troublemaker;
• attended Central Labour College;
• endured unemployment as a miner;
• was a leader during the General Strike;
• won a seat on Monmouthshire County Council in 1928;
• his political targets included Churchill and Lloyd George;
• was temporarily expelled from the Labour Party in March 1939; (can ignore)
• opposed the censorship imposed during wartime;
• his remit in 1945 also covered housing;
• was inspired by the subscription system of the Tredegar Medical Aid Society;
• the National Health Service Act was achieved after opposition from the Conservatives, his own party and the BMA;
• bombing damage helped make housing reform challenging for him; (can ignore)
• after 1951 he never regained his previous level of success;
• in 1955 he contested the Labour leadership but Gaitskell won;
• Shadow Colonial Secretary in the 1950s;
• "an outpouring of national mourning" followed his death.

• ...his criticism of the Tory prime ministers of the time. - the article describes his opposition of the Government.
• {{xt|His most famous accomplishment …}} - remove as the phrase is an example of a peacock term.
• . The left-wing group within the party became known as "Bevanite", though he did not control it. This sentence seems to be in the wrong place, as it follows the information about his death in 1960.
• Born into a working-class family in South Wales, … This also seems misplaced.
• ...Bevan eventually emerged as one of Wales' most revered politicians… - this information not evident in the main article.
• Replace the link for Minister of Labour and National Service with Secretary_of_State_for_Employment#Minister_of_Labour_and_National_Service. (Also needs to be done in the infobox and in 'Government').
• Amend Deputy Leader of the Party to ' Deputy Leader of the Labour Party'.
• Hyphenate forty four.
• '... The welfare state. - amend to the 'United Kingdom's welfare state' (or something similar).
• Replace link for Minister of Health with Secretary_of_State_for_Health_and_Social_Care#Minister_of_Health_(1919–1968).
• Reference 1 doesn't verify the statement ...Bevan was a lifelong champion of… ...democratic socialism. I would remove this citation from the lead section, as there's nothing contraversial in it that can't be cited elsewhere in the text.
• There is little in the article that states the fact directly that ...Bevan was a lifelong champion of social justice, the rights of working people and democratic socialism....
• ...soon became involved … - why 'soon'?

@Amitchell125: I've given the lead a rewrite to include most of the points you listed above and ironed out the other issues you mentioned in the process. Kosack (talk) 19:49, 23 October 2019 (UTC)

@Kosack: Many thanks for the changes, I'll sent over further comments in a day or so. Also I thought you might consider replacing the infobox image with the image shown at the top (which has a more relaxed-looking Bevan and less wall/desk etc.) Amitchell125 (talk) 21:51, 23 October 2019 (UTC)

Early life

• I would break up this large section at At the age of thirteen… - (making two sections, 'Early life and education', and 'Working life in as a miner'. - Done
• Move the image to the right hand side (normal practice). - Done
• I think you will need to replace reference 7 (Foot) - p. 28, as it refers to Bevan's court case, and not to the Tredegar Iron Company.

• I think this one was left over from before I started work on the page, as I can't get page numbers with the Google version. I've swapped this one out for a different ref now. Kosack (talk) 12:51, 24 October 2019 (UTC)

Understood. --Ami

• ... in what would become… - change to 'during'? - Done
• ..., in his arms. - c/e the sentence, or consider not including this phrase. - Done
• ...hailed from… and sacked - consider replacing these phrases with ones that are not idioms. - Done
• ...at local butchers Davis' where he received two and sixpence a week. - I would consider taking this out, as being unnecessarily detailed for an encyclopedia.'- Done
• earnt - replace with 'earned'.
• Link eisteddfod; shillings; Marxism; First World War conscription (Conscription_in_the_United_Kingdom#First_World_War); Tredegar Coal Company (Tredegar Iron and Coal Company); Miners' Federation (Miners' Federation of Great Britain); South Wales Miners' Federation; elocution, strike pay.

• Linked all except Miners' federation as this is already linked to South Wales Miners' Federation previously. Kosack (talk) 07:54, 24 October 2019 (UTC)

understood --Ami

• References 2, 6 and 14 (Foot vol. 1) require page numbers.

• Unfortunately, Google book previews do not always show page numbers as in this case. The chapter is as close as is possible with that format. Kosack (talk) 07:54, 24 October 2019 (UTC)

• The Internet Archive has both of Foot's volumes here. Register for free and log on to access them, but they should do the trick for you. Amitchell125 (talk) 12:49, 24 October 2019 (UTC)

• Wow, that's great thanks. I'll go through these when I get a chance to match them up. Kosack (talk) 12:53, 24 October 2019 (UTC)

• Done. Kosack (talk) 19:04, 24 October 2019 (UTC)

• Reference 8a (BBC) doesn't mention which employer, and so cannot be used to verify the text here (he was forced out of work on more than one occasion).

• This was the only time in Bevan's mining work when the exact situation occurred (sacked before the workers won him his employment back) so I don't think it leaves any confusion as to what incident it is referring to. Kosack (talk) 07:54, 24 October 2019 (UTC)

Understood. --Ami

• Reference 10a (New Statesman) is inadequate for verifying the text from 1919 saw the foundation of the Tredegar Labour Party… to He read Marxism at the college… - other citations are needed here..

• The Foot citation further on was covering most of that, I added the New Stateman to support the Ablett part. I've repeated the ref now to show that. Kosack (talk) 12:45, 24 October 2019 (UTC)

Understood. --Ami

Parliament

• An enormous section. I would add at least 2 sub-sections: ('MP for Ebbw Vale'; 'Opposition to the war-time government' (after By March 1938…)). - Done
• When conscription was introduced… - consider amending to 'When the Military Training Act 1939 re-introduced conscription'. Also, link conscription (Conscription in the United Kingdom). - Done
• Nazi–Soviet Pact - consider giving it its proper name ('Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact'). - Done
• Replace link for coal industry with Coal mining in the United Kingdom. - Done
• Reference 8 (BBC) doesn't mention Davies, and so an alternative reference is needed here. - Added
• ...more than twice the votes… - citation needed. Also, can the figures be given, as this statement is rather vague? - Added
• Reference 24 (ODNB) - add a public library registration or subscription required template. - Done
• ...becoming one of the 17 signatories of the Mosley Memorandum… - a citation is required here. - Added
• Who was Oswald Mosley? - Added
• ...the government's "failure… - avoid word repetition by replacing with 'its "failure'. - Done
• Bevan's wife Jennie Lee is hardly mentioned in the article, but several sources provide information about her importance to Bevan, her own attitude towards his family, and her important political career. Consider including further details about her.

• I've added a further comment on her influence but the majority of sources I'm finding point to Lee's major achievements as a minister coming after Bevan's death. Kosack (talk) 07:38, 26 October 2019 (UTC)

• (Strauss three months later) - this is probably not needed. - Done
• Remove the quotes around sinister, as a quote follows. - Done
• "a diapason of majestic harmony" - unlink diapason, as it's discouraged to link within a quote. - Done
• …, support Republican Spain… - consider replacing with 'support the democratic government in Spain', as it makes it clearer why Bevan wanted to do this. - Done
• The government had no arguments… - As it is Bevan who believes this to be true, I would precede with 'He emphasised that' (or something similar). - Done
• In August 1939 came the Nazi–Soviet Pact. Consider re-writing this as imo the sentence comes over as 'weak', considering the worldwide shock the announcement of the Pact caused.

• Expanded slightly, let me know if you think it needs more. Kosack (talk) 07:38, 26 October 2019 (UTC)

...the Nazi and Russian governments. - possibly follow with ', that shocked democratic governments around the world', or something similar. Amitchell125 (talk) 14:07, 27 October 2019 (UTC)

Added. Kosack (talk) 20:12, 27 October 2019 (UTC)

• ...of the policies of Chamberlain - replace with 'Chamberlain'? - Done
• , arguing that his old rival Winston Churchill should be given power. - I think this could be more specific, consider changing to ', arguing that Churchill should become prime minister'. - Done
• Amend Great Depression in the United Kingdom to ' Great Depression'. - Done
• The paragraph starting with In August 1939… isn't clear about Bevan's reaction to the start of the war (which can be found in Thomas-Symonds). It think he text needs to be separated clearly, so that everything before and everything after September 1939 is in different paragraphs.

• Another issue with Google Books is that excerpts are omitted in places so I don't have access to that part of Thomas-Symonds' work. Kosack (talk) 14:12, 26 October 2019 (UTC)

I have the book. His reaction to the outbreak of war was relief that at last the country was united in fighting Hitler, (in his eyes) the enemy of the left, and that now the nation's wealth and influence was to be targeted towards fighting fascism and not the workers of the world (paraphrased from T-S p. 94). Also, I would still split the paragraph up to help readers cope with what is at present 12 lines of text.

Added further info based on the information you provided above. Kosack (talk) 20:12, 27 October 2019 (UTC)

• ... Ritchie's retreat… - Ritchie's full rank and name (but not number...) needed here. Also for Rommel in the same sentence. - Done
• In this he said, … - maintain consistency by putting Bevan's words in a block quote or a quote box. - Done
• Consider linking MP to Member of parliament.

• Done at an earlier mention and in the lead. Kosack (talk) 14:12, 26 October 2019 (UTC)

• The link Second World War needs to be moved up to 'war', in During the war he was one of the main leaders…. - Done
• ...an 1855 passage from Karl Marx:… The name of Marx's publication needs to be included here, and the quotation needs a citation (MOS:PMC).

• I've added a ref but I'm not sure what publication the quote came from. Kosack (talk) 14:12, 26 October 2019 (UTC)

See The Eastern Question, p. 576, which includes the letter Marx wrote and which appeared in the New York Times 24 September 1865. I would cite this reference. --Ami

Added. Kosack (talk) 19:29, 29 October 2019 (UTC)

• ...he voted for the first time with the government. - I'm left hanging here a bit. What was the vote about, and when did it happen?

• Not one of my additions, so I'm unsure what is being referred to. Removed. Kosack (talk) 19:29, 29 October 2019 (UTC)

• ...to intern citizens without trial. By definition, internees have no right to a trial, so perhaps 'without trial' can go. - Done
• Churchill responded by calling Bevan "a squalid nuisance". This is a little misleading. Looking at what was said during the debate on the direction of the war (Hansard, 2 July 1942), Churchill did not respond by calling Bevan 'a squalid nuisance'. He actually spoke these words at a later date (Hansard, 12 June 1945). The text needs to be amended so that this is clear. - Reworded
• His opposition made him largely unpopular... - I'm not sure what 'largely unpopular' really means here. - Reworded
• Provide a citation (if from Hansard, then this) for the 'Rommel being a sargeant' quotation.Amitchell125 (talk) 08:42, 29 October 2019 (UTC) - Done

MP for Ebbw Vale

• ...and easily held the seat at the 1929 General Election. - it doesn't seem as if it is verified by reference 8 (BBC News).

I've combined the ref with the following one which provides the voting numbers to show he comfortably claimed the seat. Kosack (talk) 20:37, 28 October 2019 (UTC)

• This is symptomatic.. - citation required for this sentence (without one, some of the words come across as peacock words.

I've reworded this with a new ref to focus more on the facts of his split from Mosley. Kosack (talk) 20:37, 28 October 2019 (UTC)

• Reference 27 (Daily Herald) doesn't appear to have any relevant text (or am I going mad?).

• The ref supports the "more left-wing" quote and does mention how they shared their personal and political lives to paraphrase her influence on him. Kosack (talk) 20:37, 28 October 2019 (UTC)

Got it in the end. --Ami

Working life as a miner

• Reference 7 (GMB) not found. - Fixed

Government

• Consider replacing image of Bevan's statue with a better version (this). - Done
• Main articles: Political history of the United Kingdom (1945–present) - this would make more sense being in the 'See also' section. - Moved
• ...far-reaching social reforms… - at present it looks like an opinion, is there a citation for this? - Added
• Bevan's second quote requires a page number (p. 81). The quote needs to have the same style as the one above it.- Done
• Page numbers are needed for References 64a and 64b (Holmes). - Added
• Page number needed for reference 74 (Morgan) - p. 300? - Done
• Reference 77 (Hansard) - there is no mention of Wilson or Freeman in Bevan's speech, so another citation is needed here. '- Done
• ...would be overrun. - copy-editing needed here. :* spelling ('underinvestment').

• I've fixed the typo suggested, was that the only issue with this part? Kosack (talk) 20:54, 27 October 2019 (UTC)

Looks fine now. --Ami

• This was achieved… - it sounds as if the receiving of the keys is being referred to here. - Reworded
• We should try to introduce… - state the speaker/place/date, as with the first quote in the section. - Done
• Bevan was also limited due to his desire… - this sentence needs to be copy-edited, as currently it doesn't really make sense. - Reworded
• While this was not an insignificant achievement… - this requires a citation, as 'not insignificant' (i.e. 'significant') is a peacock term. 'Significant' is repeated later in the section, but it is cited.

• Expanded and added a new ref. Kosack (talk) 20:54, 27 October 2019 (UTC)

• ...300,000… - '300,000 new homes'. - Done
• Bevan's impetuous temperament, undiplomatic tone and reputation… - it's not clear that Atlee spoke the words quoted here. If he did, the quote needs to provided with a speaker/place/date. If he didn't, the text shouldn't be treated as a quote.

• I'm unsure if this is a quote, I'm assuming it's more Campbell's opinion. As such, I've dropped it as a quote and simply stated his writings. Kosack (talk) 20:54, 27 October 2019 (UTC)

• Bevan was instead appointed … - this sentence needs to be copy-edited to improve the prose. - Reworded
• Link prescription charges. - Done
• Who are David Marquand and Kenneth O. Morgan? - Added
• ... in Bevan… - 'upon Bevan'. - Done
• ...the increase in "military expenditure" - I'm not sure why there are quote marks here. - Removed
• Later the same year,… - new paragraph here? - Done
• Sub-sections - what do you think? - consider inserting 'Minister of Health (1945-51)' (starting from The free National Health Service was paid for directly…); 'Housing reform' (from When Bevan was made a minister in 1945, he envisioned a sector of public housing…); and 'Minister of Labour and National Service (January - April 1951)' (from Bevan was instead appointed Minister of Labour...).

• I've added in the suggested sub-sections, although I dropped the month's from the final one. Seemed more streamlined with just the year. Kosack (talk) 21:37, 29 October 2019 (UTC)

Opposition

• The Times Literary Supplement - needs italics. - Done
• Remove the link for dithyramb as it is within a quote. Add a note if necessary.- Done
• ... preparing for tests of its first hydrogen bomb,… - consider amending to 'preparing for Operation Grapple, the testing of its first hydrogen bomb.' (including the two links). - Done
• Gaitskell was prepared to make Bevan Shadow Colonial Secretary... - It needs to be clearer that AB was Shadow Colonial Secretary, not just considered for the post. - Reworded
• Reference 89 (Kynaston) doesn't seem to be the right one.

• The url was for his other book so I've moved that to the correct citation. The reference is correct though for the info, see [1]. Kosack (talk) 21:37, 29 October 2019 (UTC)

Understood. --Ami

• Link nuclear weapons; libel; Queen's Speech. - Done

Death/Legacy

• An uninspiring image of the Ysbyty Aneurin Bevan is available at https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:SE_edge_of_Ysbyty_Aneurin_Bevan,_Ebbw_Vale_(geograph_2625248).jpg, and there is a more attractive image of the memorial stones at https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Aneurin_Bevan_Memorial_Stones: they might be worth including. - Added
• Charles James Fox - the link should be removed, as it is within a quote (common practice). If necessary, add a note to explain the significance of Fox in the quote, and who he was. - Removed
• In his 2014 biography, Nick Thomas-Symonds described "an outpouring of national mourning" that followed Bevan's death. The paragraph containing this text now seems to be in the wrong section, imo it really belongs in the 'Death' section. What are your thoughts? Amitchell125 (talk) 08:20, 30 October 2019 (UTC)

• Funnily enough I toyed with the idea of where to place the immediate aftermath information myself for some time. I've moved it into the death section now. Kosack (talk) 10:04, 30 October 2019 (UTC)

Bibliography

• Add the url for Bevan's Why Not Trust the Tories? (this).- Done
• Add the url for In Place of Fear (this).- Done

Notes

• References 13a and b (Tredegar Development Trust) not found. - Recovered
• Reference 20 (Westacott) is unreliable. Can the original text be located? - Replaced
• Reference 57 (Beech and Lee) has no page number.

• This ref was not added by myself, as such I have no way of accessing the source. Kosack (talk) 14:46, 26 October 2019 (UTC)

I can do this for you, as I can access the text. Amitchell125 (talk) 15:46, 27 October 2019 (UTC)

• Reference 11 (Marquand) - consider adding a {{{registration required}} template. - Done

The following books should be added to the References section:

• Baxell (ref. 42)
• Beech and Lee (ref. 58)
• Campbell Nye Bevan: a biography (ref. 67)
• Morgan (ref.70)
• Addison (ref. 81)
• Callaghan (refs. 92 &95)
• Pope, Pratt & Hoyle (ref. 101)
• Rubinstein (ref. 102).

• Is there a need to list single use books elsewhere? I would generally only look to use the page referencing system when it's used more than once. In these cases, the books are only used once (I can add Callaghan for the double use). Kosack (talk) 14:16, 26 October 2019 (UTC)

Not sure about this one, Kosack. Some articles have all their citations in one place, some list books, etc. in 'References', with inline citations separate, in 'Notes'. This article looks like a mixture of both styles. I suggest we keep the references as they are, and I'll check if things need to be changed for GA. Amitchell125 (talk) 16:11, 27 October 2019 (UTC)

References/Further reading

• I would add urls for Lee (here) and Morgan (here). Also, the full title of Morgan's book Labour people: leaders and lieutenants, Hardie to Kinnock is needed. - Done
• Add links for Peter Hennessy; Kenneth O. Morgan; Dai Smith (Dai Smith (academic)) and John Campbell (John Campbell (biographer)). - Done
• Apart from Lee and Campbell, the 'Further Reading' list needs to be amended using Template:Cite book or other template, so that the style adopted is consistent.

• A quick thought before I put the leg work in on this one. Are the entries in books where Bevan is not the primary subject worth removing? Bevan is likely featured in countless books so listing them all here would be impossible. I'm therefore inclined to remove a few which simply have entries or mentions of him, thoughts? Kosack (talk) 14:46, 26 October 2019 (UTC)

No, don't include everything. Every book ever written about the history of Wales or the Labour Party will mention Bevan. From the Further Reading list, I would ditch Hennessey, Rosen and Smith (2004), but not the others. Amitchell125 (talk) 16:48, 27 October 2019 (UTC)

Removed the suggested ones. Kosack (talk) 20:54, 27 October 2019 (UTC)

• ISBN or OCLC numbers are needed for all the books where this has not yet been done. - Added
• Consider adding a url (here) and a {{subscription required}} template, for Campbell's article in History Today. - Done
• Include the Internet Archive url for Morgan's Rebirth of a Nation: https://archive.org/details/rebirthofnationw0000morg. - Done
• Add the url for Kynaston: https://archive.org/details/austeritybritain00kyna. - Done
• and Crosland: https://archive.org/details/futureofsocialis0000cros. - Done
• Michie's book (full text at https://archive.org/details/godsavequeenmod00mich) needs to be included in the References section.

• This comes back to the point I made about single use book refs earlier. Waiting on a response for that. Kosack (talk) 14:56, 26 October 2019 (UTC)

Keep Michie as it is (see my reply). --Ami

External links

• Consider adding this link to British Pathe. - Done
• Add the external link to images of Bevan in the National Portrait Gallery, London. - Done
• The Internet Archive link is not needed. - Done
• Warn that the Librivox files are very large. - Done
• It might be worth noting that none of the 594 ZBW files you find when you use the external link appear to be indexed.

• I'm not sure what you mean by this one I'm afraid, can you elaborate? Kosack (talk) 14:56, 26 October 2019 (UTC)

Apologies for not being clear on this point. If you click on the 'Newspaper clippings about Aneurin Bevan' external link, and you can access over 500 files, each of which is about Bevan in some way. The problem (worth highlighting imo) is that none of the files appear to be named properly, so the resource is not as useful as it could be. Hope this helps. --Ami

I've added an "unindexed" note to the link. Let me know if that's not sufficient. Kosack (talk) 20:58, 27 October 2019 (UTC)

Apologies in advance if I have made any errors. --Ami

I think I've addressed every point above, a few need further input, thanks. Kosack (talk) 14:56, 26 October 2019 (UTC)

On hold

Thanks for all your work, Kosack, the article is now looking in much better shape, and I've put it on hold for a week. The last remaining points to address (they are listed above) are mostly in the Opposition section. Regarding the references, I think the article would be stronger with a more complete References section—would you be happy if I went ahead and produced that myself sometime in the future, even though it may not be needed for GA? Amitchell125 (talk) 20:59, 29 October 2019 (UTC)

I've addressed the points in the opposition section. Thanks for the effort in reviewing this, no need to ask if you feel you can make further improvements to the article, go ahead. Kosack (talk) 21:37, 29 October 2019 (UTC)

Passing the article

Passing now, terrific effort on your part, many thanks for being a great editor. Amitchell125 (talk) 14:02, 30 October 2019 (UTC)