Talk:Andriy Shevchenko

Common Name

Andriy Shevchenko is a common Ukrainian name. There are several famous people that have it (Andriy Shevchenko - the vice president of Ukraininan National Television Company (journalist) and Andriy Sevchenko - reporter of 1+1 TV channel). I propose to change the title of the article - Andriy Shevchenko (footballer - or soccer player), and to put a "disambiguation" on the page "Andriy Shevchenko" Sakura-org 18:02, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

See other meanings is necessary for this page. There is also an article on Andriy Shevchenko, a politician and journalist, well known in the country from the times of the Orange Revolution. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Goev (talk • contribs) 01:33, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

Goals and appearances

Shevchenko scored 173 goals in 296 appearance for milan, please ceize editing this. The football statistics database only takes into account league games. Shevchenko is the second all time leading goal scorer of AC Milan with 173 goals in 296 appearances. The sources to this information are extensive. Xioyux 04:12, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Well whatever your source is, its wrong..how bout you calculate it by hand instead (see AC Milan Official Website for data)? ;)

99/00 32ga 24gl

00/01 32ga 24gl

01/02 29ga 14gl

02/03 24ga 5gl

03/04 32ga 24gl

04/05 29ga 17gl

05/06 27ga 19gl

Here's how I knew right away that your data was wrong...a Serie A season is 38 games, meaning that he must have played (every game) in Serie A for more than 7 seasons, which is obviously not the case, considering his injuries and non-starts during his AC Milan career. Cheers, mate. --Palffy 16:20, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Shevchenko also played numerous games in european competitions and the Italian cup for AC milan. The statistics you are using contain just the information for the goals in the Italian Series A league, not any other competitions. Shevchenko scored 24 goals in his first Series A season and was the leading goalscorer (this was widely documented) however, he also scored numerous goals in the Italian Cup as well as The European Competition.

Just take a look at the wikipedia article on AC Milan, Shevchenko is the 2nd leading goalscorer with 173 goals.

Here are just a few sources.

http://www.mosnews.com/news/2006/06/01/shevchenko.shtml

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/sports/2006-06/01/content_605608_2.htm

http://www.999today.com/sports/news/story/3274.html

http://www.4thegame.com/club/chelsea-fc/player-profile/6442/andriyshevchenko.html

http://www.cfcnet.co.uk/content/results_detail.asp?Type=News&ID=5978

http://www.sfxsports.co.uk/news_company.asp?Action=Detail&NewsID=431

Shevchenko has scored 173 goals in 296 appearances for AC Milan over the span of 7 years, the statistics of a player need to include ALL goals for the club, not just Series A goals. It is widely documented that Shevchenko has scored 173 goals for AC Milan. Xioyux 17:33, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm not doubting you that he has scored 173 goals in 296 appearance for AC Milan in ALL COMPETITIONS. However, it is footballer infobox template which is standard thoughout Wikipedia, as stated under the goals scored itself "* Professional club appearances and goals counted for the domestic league only and correct as of DATE." --Palffy 17:47, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

I see. I didn't know this. I apologise. Why would wikipedia not document ALL goals scored by the player, though? Why only document league goals? Should there not be some information as to european competition goals? Xioyux 17:49, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, first of all, its hard to see which competitions should be taken into account with regards to total goals--ie, is the Copa Libertadores worth mentioning? What about the African-continent club competitions? Also, cup matches can be played against much weaker opponents, allowing for high scorelines and thus increased scoring. I personally agree that this is the best way to standardize everything. However, if you want to make a note of his complete scoring record somewhere in the article (mentioning that it includes cup and European matches), then you're certainly welcome to do so.. --Palffy 18:04, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Ok, thanks for the information and help. Xioyux 18:45, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

unfounded allegations?

Where is the solid proof of what roman has offered. If it is just a rumor it should not be on the page or clearly stated as so.

Transfer Speculation

He's announced he wants to leave AC milan today, so I'm putting it up... Tempted to put a current event tag on it but doesn't really need it.

can this be deleted now? i'm not sure if i should because is a talk page. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Numberwang (talk • contribs) 22:59, 28 April 2007 (UTC).

Information Request

Is he Roman Catholic because I've seen picture of his sons'christining in a Roman Catholic church or is it just his wife that is Roman Catholic

His wife is just roman catholic not him

ideology

I heard this on a TV Sports Channel: "Although he has millions of dollars now, he hasn't refused to his ideology of communism".

Anyone know if that's true? has he done some reference to it?

i doubt it.

NEW SON????

I heard from a friend that his wife gave birth to an england born son. Perhaps the chelski fans would like to enlighten more on this issue.

57? i don't understand is number exactly refers to.

It i stated in the introductory paragraph that shevchenko is the "second-highest goal scorer of all-time in European club competitions with 57 goals, behind only Gerd Müller.[1]"

doest the 57 refer to goals scored in a single season or what? Müller scored more than 350 in his career with ac milan. please explain what this number is supposed to mean.

67.173.83.220 19:05, 28 December 2006 (UTC)tom crestodina

57 refers to the number of goals he's scored in European club competitions (ie the UEFA Champions League/European Cup). SteveO 19:29, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Country of birth edit war

Apparently there has been an edit war over the past few days on this article with regards to Andriy's country of birth. I don't really have a preference as to which country is stated in his profile (Ukraine or the USSR), however I would imagine that Ukraine is a better choice, solely on the basis that other encyclopedias such as Encarta use present day countries (see Gorby's entry for instance) for notable persons' place of birth. Just my 2 cents.. --Palffy 01:48, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

How about "born 29 September 1976 in Dvirkivschyna, USSR (now Ukraine)"? MaxSem 10:33, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

I'd include (now Ukraine) as a hidden note as clarification for editors, but there seems to be a disregard for those. - Dudesleeper · Talk 11:42, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

You could use Ukrainian SSR. The problem with using Ukraine it that the entity he was born in was not called Ukraine at the time, thus constituting a case of systemic bias towards modern times. Punkmorten 21:12, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

In truth, Ukrainian SSR and Ukraine were used almost interchangeably. As a subject of international law, it was known as Ukrainian SSR but as a country it was known as Ukraine. See for example "Ukrainian SSR; also known as Ukraine" in Encarta ([1]). By the way, I'd like to invite the person who keeps reverting to USSR quoting the "countryname" field to actually read the definition of a country - quite clearly Ukraine is and was a country, not to mention that Ukraine is (a) more relevant; (b) more useful as a piece of information; (c) an established practice Dkua 22:16, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Also see "Ukraine" on the list of the founding members of the United Nations (in 1945) at the UN site ([2]) Dkua 22:27, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

OK, Sheva was born in 1976 in Ukrainian SSR, hopefully no one disputes that. Now, if Ukraine was a country between 1917 and 1991 as you claim, then a separate Ukrainian SSR entry on Wikipedia is quite redundant and at present quite wrong because it describes that entity as a "constituent republic of the Soviet Union" and not as a "country".

Furthermore, the following paragraph from the Ukrainian SSR entry basically says it all: "After World War II, in 1945, some amendments to the Constitution of the Ukrainian SSR were accepted, which allowed it to act as a separate subject of international law in some cases and to a certain extent, remaining a part of the USSR at the same time. In particular, these amendments allowed the Ukrainian SSR to become one of founding members of the United Nations (UN) together with the USSR and the Byelorussian SSR. In reality this simply meant giving the Soviet Union extra seats (and votes) in the UN, since the Ukrainian SSR had no independent voice in international affairs."

So Ukrainian SSR was "to a certain extent and in some cases a separate subject of international law" allthewhile firmly remaining a highly centralized part of USSR. I don't see a country there, I only see a part of another country with certain small privileges, which were political skullduggery in the first place to get more UN votes.65.94.140.241 00:17, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

It doesn't matter. What Ukraine had at the time is enough for wikipedia. Who are you to change these standards? The infobox reads "place of birth", and it's common to use the current place of birth. This article was correctly labeled before and I guess it will take a mod to make you stop editing it over and over since argument here is pointless. Xioyux 00:58, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

So, now that you've run out of actual facts, nonsense is the order of the day. The part of infobox that we're talking about here is "countryofbirth" not "placeofbirth" - what does "placeofbirth" have to do with anything!??? Nobody's disputing the fact he was born in a place called Dvirkivschyna. I'm talikng about the fact that at the time of Sheva's birth Dvirkivschyna was part of a country called Soviet Union.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by "What Ukraine had at the time is enough for wikipedia.", I'm assuming you're forcing your opinion that Ukrainian SSR was a country, which it obviously wasn't according to its very definition on Wikipedia.

Even you yourself admit that answering "Ukraine" to countryofbirth query in Sheva's case isn't quite right, so you keep talking about some supposed standards. What standards? - how can giving wrong information suddenly become a standard.65.94.140.241 01:44, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

It appears you have not read the country page. There is a pretty clear description there, and I suggest you read it. Your opinion is purely emotional, it suggests that for example Wales and England are not countries, but they are, alas (for you). The degree of Ukraine's sovereignty is entirely irrelevant to this discussion (though history has shown that ultimately it had full sovereignty - at the end of the day it used its constitutional right to secede from the USSR in 1991, see Republics of the Soviet Union). What is much more relevant is that the information in the article should be relevant and useful - someone reading it is very likely to be interested whether Shevchenko was born in the country he has played for all his life (once again, please read the definition of a country). Finally, as has been pointed out by a number of people, there is an established convention for living people who were born in the ex-USSR constituent republics, not just in Wikipedia (see the Kerzhakov, Smertin, Hleb, Arveladze, Kaladze, Rebrov, Voronin, Jankauskas, Poom, Stepanovs articles, etc.), but in other prominent encyclopedias as well. You should try and stop the childish game of editing the article a hundred times a day - you can't enforce your own rules in one separate article. Dkua 02:02, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Rather than dealing with linguistic, general, loosy-goosy definitions of a country, we have a specific example - Ukrainian SSR. You say that it was a country even if it's very entry on Wikipedia lists as "constituent republic within USSR", meaning a constituent part of a country. Furthermore, you list the fact that it seceded from USSR along with other republics as supposed proof that it is a country; well Montenegro just seceded from Serbia-Montenegro last year - by your rationale it would follow that it was a country even before it did so, which doesn't make any sense. The England, Wales and Northern Ireland examples are not good because those entities always had their own national teams whereas Ukrainian SSR didn't. Other players' entries who were born during Soviet times should also be changed, but I suspect each one of those articles have their very own versions of Dkua and Xioyux "guarding" them against common sense according to current national feelings. And as for this supposed "well established convention" when it comes to ex-Soviet players that you're often talking of, I must point out to you what you're effectively saying by constantly bringing it up - you're basically saying "yeah, I know this isn't quite right, but hey it's a convention that a few of us came up with, so what the hell, since nobody complained much we'll just use it". That's wrong. Wrong info shouldn't be a part of any convention or standard, no matter how loose or informal that standard may be. 65.94.140.241 02:57, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Get your facts straight - I did not use the secession as a proof of anything. It was a side note (and I made it quite clear) in response to your attempt to start a legal argument. I referred to the UN site as evidence that back in 1945 United Nations referred to Ukraine as "Ukraine" ([3]) - it was in response to Punkmorten's suggestion to use "Ukrainian SSR" instead of "Ukraine". Here's a useful link for everyone's benefit: [4] Dkua 21:46, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

This simply should be considered vandalism. Xioyux 02:57, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

My sentiments exactly. I have filed an RFP for Andriy Shevchenko. That should lock the anon out, stop the edit war and allow us to improve the article. --J.L.W.S. The Special One 05:26, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

The RFP was declined. Consequently, I have decided to join the edit war, supporting the registered users' viewpoint that the Ukraine should be listed as his country of birth. I think the anonymous user is simply POV-pushing.

On IRC, a neutral user suggested two compromises: "Ukranian SSR" and "Ukraine (then part of the USSR)". If the anonymous user accepts either, the edit war is over. If he doesn't, three registered users will revert all his POV-pushing attempts and out-argue him on the talk page. --J.L.W.S. The Special One 06:05, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm joining the war on anon side, just to even the numbers. But seriously now, you have to be blind with irrational nationalism to list Ukrainian SSR as a "country". It simply isn't correct. Zvonko 14:35, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

If that is your opinion, why would you join the edit war on the side of the anonymous user? If the RFP had not been declined, there'd be no need for me to join the edit war. Now that the article has been semi-protected, the edit war is over, and I see no need to join an edit war that has already ended. --J.L.W.S. The Special One 02:41, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

Your line of reasoning is very baffling, indeed, but that's beside the point. As for why would I want to "join" anon's side, how about because I agree with the man (or woman) in regards to what we're talking about here (Ukrainian SSR, NOT being a country at the time of Shevchenko's birth, or at any other time during its existence 1917-1991, for that matter) and feel that he's being drowned out by a bunch of nationalist bullies. The one thing that I hate on wikipedia is this bully herd mentality that you exemplify so well.Zvonko 02:54, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

I misread your statement "you have to be blind with irrational nationalism to list Ukrainian SSR as a country" as meaning that you disagree with the compromise of using Ukrainian SSR. I'm not a "nationalist bully" - if you bothered to check my userpage history or my contribs, you'd know I'm from Singapore. In my opinion, listing the Ukraine as his place of birth provides more useful information to readers - and he has always played for the Ukraine national team. If you think I exmplify a "bully herd" mentality, I think your mentality shows why vandals and trolls are given too much leeway on Wikipedia and allowed to get away with their acts. Or in the words of no less than RickK: "Vandals, trolls and malactors are given respect, whereas those who are here to actually create an encyclopedia, and to do meaningful work, are slapped in the face and not given the support needed to do the work they need to do." --J.L.W.S. The Special One 08:21, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Stop. "Joining" an edit war is absolutely juvenile. Do not violate WP:3RR. Discuss with other editors on the talk page if there is some controversy about Shevchenko's birthplace. If you can find real, honest-to-god sources in books or newpapers (far better than websites) list different birthplaces for him, then say as much in the article. Instead of having the article assert factually that he was born in a particular place, address the uncertainty. If it's worth "joining" an edit war, then it's worth going to your local library or bookstore to find sources. Use your heads. A Train^talk 18:48, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Don't worry - I'm very careful to avoid breaking 3RR. Most newspapers I have read do not comment on Sheva's place of birth, but they all call him an "Ukranian striker". --J.L.W.S. The Special One 02:41, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

Proposed resolutions

Editors in the above discussion have suggested the following compromises:

• "USSR (now Ukraine)"
• adding <!-- (now Ukraine) --> as a hidden message
• "Ukranian SSR" or "Ukraine (then part of the USSR)"

I'd like to suggest another option: using a footnote to address the dispute

• USSR<ref>At the time of Shevchenko's birth in 1976, the Ukraine (then known as the Ukrainian SSR) was a constituent state of the Soviet Union.</ref>

Anyone else have input on how to resolve this dispute? --Muchness 01:42, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

Agree with the approach, still think Ukraine is more appropriate here, also suggest some rewording of the footnote:

Ukraine<ref>At the time of Shevchenko's birth in 1976, Ukraine (then also known as the Ukrainian SSR) was a constituent republic of the Soviet Union (see [[Ukrainian SSR]])</ref> Dkua 01:58, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

Let's wait for the anonymous user to respond. If he accepts a compromise, good. If he leaves, there's no need to compromise. If he persists...you know what will happen. --J.L.W.S. The Special One 02:41, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

• USSR<ref>At the time of Shevchenko's birth in 1976, the Ukraine (then known as the Ukrainian SSR) was a constituent state of the Soviet Union.</ref> is absolutely the best option. Zvonko 02:43, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

"is absolutely the best option" sounded amazing enough but then you went to the article and edited it back to the more extreme version. That presumably makes it even better than "absolutely the best option" - is it "absolutest the bestest option" then? :-) Dkua 21:35, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

This change would confuse things. It's correct that the USSR was the union at the time. But for "place of birth", it should focus on geographical location now and not what the union to which the place of birth belonged to 30 years ago, it just doesn't make sense, it's irrelevant, it confuses and does not improve. It's amazing that a small group of users can come to wikipedia and keep editing a certain article over and over and as a result conjure a serious change in policy: all players from the former USSR from every former member country currently have their place of birth labeled as the country to which the location is currently assigned, although born in the former USSR. This makes it a lot less confusing because the USSR consisted of a very large landmass. I don't have the time to find any biographical books on these players right now but every internet source I can find labels shevchenko as born in Kiev, Ukraine. And it makes sense, because that's the place of birth. I don't see why the country the place of birth was related to 30 years ago is important or relevant. Why not simply leave it as the current location? The label after all simply reads "place of birth". It should just be left as Ukraine. 71.244.57.101 03:53, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

Anon here, I have a different IP than the one couple days ago since my internet service provider assigns a different one for every new session, I've no control over that.

USSR<ref>At the time of Shevchenko's birth in 1976, the Ukraine (then known as the Ukrainian SSR) was a constituent state of the Soviet Union.</ref>

would be acceptable as far as I'm concerned, although the word "republic" instead of "state" would be more suitable. 69.156.113.201 11:44, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

Leaving it as Ukraine is preferable in the Place of Birth section. Republic would make it more suitable, but USSR is just irrelevant here, people are looking for the place of birth, not the place of birth in relation to the state it was in 30 years ago. USSR is a loophole in the standard playerbox, it wasn't taken into account when it was created. It could be correct (Ukraine also being correct) but less relevant and unnecessary, doing nothing positive to the article, making it more confusing. Xioyux 15:19, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

People can argue about the legal status of Ukraine and the meaning of it being a founding member of the United Nations to eternity but to me that is of little relevance. A key requirement to encyclopedias is that they are supposed to present useful and relevant information. That Shevchenko (a Ukrainian footballer who has played only for Ukraine and was too young to play for any team when USSR was still in existence) was born in Ukraine is much more informative and relevant than that he was born somewhere in USSR. Dkua 21:41, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

Exactly. Think of the readers. --J.L.W.S. The Special One 08:21, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

A few other examples of presenting useful information: the article about the inventor of basketball James Naismith states that he was born in Canada in 1861. Of course Canada was a colony of the UK at that time and the the dogmatic rules that our Serbian friends (or perhaps I should have said "our friends from ex-SFR Yugoslavia?") have tried to impose here would require the infobox to state that he was born in the United Kingdom. How useful would that be? Precisely - not useful at all. (Encarta is the same in this regards [5]). The same about Alfred Deakin, [[Rajiv Gandhi], Charles Kennedy etc. In each case the article presents useful information, and country is used in the sense of a nation rather than a state (see Merriam-Webster [6]). Dkua 00:47, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Many encyclopedia articles take things in context of the time. Wikipedia is no different. So when Andriy Shevchenko was born in 1976, Dvirkivschyna was then in the Ukrainian SSR of the Soviet Union. Since his birth the Soviet Union (or USSR) has been dissolved and the Ukraine has become an independent republic.
Take a look at some other Chelsea players. Petr Čech was born in 1982, Plzeň, in the then Czechoslovakia - Plzeň is now part of the Czech Republic. Michael Ballack was born in 1976, Görlitz, in the then East Germany - Görlitz is now part of the reunited Germany.
There isn't any mention in which adminstrative areas that Petr Čech and Michael Ballack were born. So with the same reason it's not neccesary to mention that Andriy Shevchenko was born in the Kiev Oblast.
It seems there is some contention between Ukraine, Ukrainian SSR and the Soviet Union. There is a ready made answer to that problem.
Usually with the United Kindom and United States encyclopedia articles we see London, England, or Edinburgh, Scotland, or San Francisco, California or Dallas, Texas. Technically, United Kingdom or United States could be added on, but they aren't.
So too with the former Soviet Union republics. For example we'll just see articles that someone was born in Kiev, Ukraine, or Tallin, Estonia, or Tblisi, Georgia. There's no need to mention if they were born before fall of the Soviet Union or after. To solve the problem with where Andriy Shevchenko was born, simply state he was born in Dvirkivschyna, Ukraine.
Most sport fans and football fans are more interested in the actual game, than with the in-and-outs of someone's birthplace. Cayden (talk) 10:38, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Well, as far as I know Ukraine was a Soviet Socialist Republic in the Union with other 13 republics of equal status, plus RSFSR. Most people don't consider it as a country, but that is their issue. UkrSSR had its own government with ministry of international affairs and representation at UN, whatever status it might have been perceived (it's still the fact). So, technically, the correct way is Dvirkivschina, Kyiv, UkrSSR (or, simply, Ukraine). Oh, one more thing -- Shevchenko's nationality is not a soviet person:), he's the Ukrainian and has my greatest respect for that. Unlike some other people of whom I don't think is worth even mentioning.Aleksandr Grigoryev (talk) 23:29, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Why is it that some people tend to prefer "what things should be" ahead of FACTS. I fully respect your Ukrainian nationalism and pride, but it does not change the fact that he was born in the USSR. And if people can't accept that, then what is the problem with "Ukraine (then Soviet Union)", a proposal which has also been deleted by the Ukranian nationalists. I'm not from Eastern Europe, and I don't hate the USSR as I think some users here do (I don't have any feelings about the subject except showing facts), but I don't understand why some facts must be hidden in the name of nationalism. It is mentioned at least 100 times in the article that he is Ukrainian, it is not like this fact is doubted, when USSR is added the single place it fits. You can't make the Soviet era disappear by trying to deny it's excistence in the Wikipedia, which beyond any doubt is the agenda for some users in here. Get beyond that level and focus on facts!. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Maracana (talk • contribs) 03:08, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Maracana, there's no point in pretending that your crusade is one against fact-deniers. Shevchenko was born in Ukraine and Shevchenko was born in the USSR are both facts. One is simply much more useful and relevant than the other, and its use is also standard practice in Wikipedia (although one could mention both, e.g. "Ukraine, USSR" if the latter is deemed significant for this personality, or otherwise "Ukrainian SSR"). In this bizarre war you are waging what is most puzzling to me is why you have limited it to personalities from Eastern Europe. All over Wikipedia, personalities from the UK have Wales/Scotland/England mentioned e.g. check Giggs, Beckham etc, personalities from the US have their state eg Mohhamed Ali etc, those from any empire have the name of the colony, etc. Yet you war is somehow directed at Eastern Europe only. This targeting of Eastern Europe is quite remarkable and I have seen it before (in the case with the names of sports teams). Whether this is a lack of understanding or something else, I don't know. But I don't think what you are doing is useful - on the contrary, it is totally counterproductive. Dkua (talk) 16:50, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Add one more supporter to Maracana's view, who echoes the opinion I gave, oh, three years ago now, was it? Hopefully the change will happen this time around. - Dudesleeper Talk 16:57, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Dudesleeper, today you edited Michael Dawson. Have you attempted to change his place of birth from "Northallerton, England" to "Northallerton, United Kingdom"? If not why, and what's the name for the different treatment you give to Shevchenko? I don't know why some people like you and Maracana reserve a special view for anything and anyone from Eastern Europe as if it was on a different planet. Dkua (talk) 17:09, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

What was England known as in 1983? - Dudesleeper Talk 22:07, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

"England". So you are happy to put the name of the constituent country in infobox as long as it was known that way at the time of the person's birth? Then I have a question: What was Ukraine known as in 1976? Dkua (talk) 22:33, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

It's probably been listed as Northallerton, North Yorkshire, England, United Kingdom at some point. I'm happy to roll with whatever the consensus is. I recommend other users to try it. - Dudesleeper Talk 12:27, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

I think it is the difference between you and Maracana - you are happy to go with the consensus whereas Maracana just makes dawn raids twice a year to edit dozens of articles to reflect his point of view. Of course articles revert to consensus with time, so he strikes again. As to the consensus, it appears that virtually all articles about personalities born in a constituent country have it mentioned in the infobox, particularly if their activity/legacy is associated with that constituent country (e.g. Beckham has England, Giggs has Wales, Shevchenko has Ukraine, Rajiv Ghandi has British India, etc.) Whether or not the larger entity is mentioned (e.g. United Kingdom, USSR, British Empire, etc.) varies - though if someone wants to include it I suspect that will be fine with most people as long as the constituent country is not deleted. Dkua (talk) 20:47, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

I also support Maracana's change. Shevchenko was born a Soviet citizen. пﮟოьεԻ 57 23:29, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Number 57, the discussion is about place of birth information in the infobox, not about citizenship (although it has to be said, according to the Constitution of the Ukrainian SSR Shevchenko was in fact a citizen of the Ukrainian SSR as well as a citizen of the USSR, i.e. there were two 'layers' of citizenship - but as I said this is irrelevant to this discussion). Dkua (talk) 00:37, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I know what the discussion is about. Shevchenko was born in Kiev, Soviet Union (now in Ukraine). пﮟოьεԻ 57 12:14, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

In my view your suggestion is not unreasonable - the only issue with writing "(now in Ukraine)" is Kiev was in Ukraine then, not only now. You could do it if a place was transferred from one country to another (e.g. Yozhef Sabo - born in Ungvar, Hungary (now Uzhhorod, Ukraine)) but Kiev was always part of Ukraine in Shevchenko's lifetime, simply Ukraine was not always part of the USSR. Dkua (talk) 20:47, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

I support the view that Shevchenko was born in Ukraine because that is how it was. For example, if you were to write that someone was born in Los Angeles, you would write Los Angeles, California not Los Angeles, USA. Also, if you were to write that someone was born in Glasgow, you would say that they were born in Glasgow, Scotland, not Glasgow, United Kingdom. The same goes for Soviet Union. If one was born in Kiev, they were born in Kiev, Ukraine, not Kiev, Soviet Union. --Boguslav (talk) 05:42, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

First name pronounciation

I'd like to clear this up. The article states that "Andriy", his name, pronounced the same way in Russian and Ukrainian. But that's not true. In Russian, his name is pronounced "Andrey", while in Ukrainian it would be "iy" at the end... The pronounciation is different in the two languages. Correctly, Shevchenko's name should be Andriy because he is Ukrainian. However Shevchenko is from a Russian-speaking community in Ukraine and pronounces his name Andrei while still spelling it Andriy (it doesn't make much sense). That causes the confusion, but Skysports probably writes his name the most correct way for his pronounciation (the russian pronounciation). Definitly the article shouldn't say that the name is pronounced the same in both languages. Xioyux 21:48, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Actually it says that his last name (ie Shevchenko) is pronounced the same way in Russian and Ukrainian, which is correct Dkua 22:19, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Ohhh, sorry! Xioyux 23:41, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Protected because of birthplace edit war

The back-and-forth edits about Shevchenko's place of birth being either the Ukraine or the Soviet Union have gotten so frequent that I've protected this page instead of issuing a spate of 3RR blocks. There needs to be a discussion here about what the article should say, and a consensus needs to be reached. I misunderstood the nature of the argument when I posted above; it's clear that the problem here is a semantic one.

REMEMBER: If you have a personal axe to grind, then this is not the place to do it. Wikipedia is not your personal soapbox. I will help to moderate the discussion here, because I am knowledgeable about soccer and I frankly couldn't care less if the article said Ukraine or USSR. Article protection expires in one week; if a resolution is not reached by then, then I'll open an RFC. A Train^talk 21:48, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Quite amazing that an attack by anonymous individuals on one of the more active articles should lead to a ban on registered users making useful changes. Of course in the heat of their frantic activity they couldn't care less that the article actually requires quite a bit of attention and honest editing. A little investigations could actually lead one to believe that the attack was co-ordinated (the said individuals have similar interest profiles i.e. Serbian affairs) Dkua 22:10, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

If you disagree with my protecting the article, there's no need to be so sarcastic. I'm happy to lower the protection level to semi-protect for now. Next time, just ask. A Train^talk 22:19, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Didn't mean to sound sarcastic, just thought it was harsh. Dkua 22:20, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

I'd like this taken to RFC since both sides clearly think they know better. - Dudesleeper · Talk 13:56, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Since everyone disagreed with the anonymous edit-warrior, semi-protection should have stopped the edit war, but Zvonko decided to keep it going. If you read all the arguments previously presented on the talk page, you will probably find the arguments for Ukraine are more convincing. --J.L.W.S. The Special One 15:05, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Nope, not everyone. I disagreed with DDima's April 3 edit and reverted back to USSR on April 5. Similar instances have occurred in other articles (see here, for example). Dudesleeper · Talk 15:17, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Question to Zvonko, Dudesleeper and the anonymous user.

If a footballer was born in Singapore in 1964, and played for the Singapore national football team for 10 years, do you think it would be ridiculous for the article to list Malaysia as his place of birth? Doing so would confuse and mislead readers. --J.L.W.S. The Special One 11:30, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

You keep doubting the credentials of the readers of Wikipedia. I think they'd prefer facts over what things should be, which is what the current distorting of information amounts to. - Dudesleeper · Talk 14:46, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

removing the trivia section

i've moved the armani part into private life, and the golden ball part into the a.c milan section. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Numberwang (talk • contribs) 22:54, 28 April 2007 (UTC).

English proficiency

We have a line that says he went to Chelsea partly in order to "learn English", which suggests to me he doesn't know much of it yet, but someone added a trivia item saying that he is already "fluent" in the language. Which of these is correct? —Resurgent insurgent 2007-05-09 23:06Z

i think it was more about his chidren learning english.--Numberwang 10:59, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure that when he came to Chelsea he was not fluent, but was looking forward to learning it. Miles Blues 19:25, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Before chelsea he was not fluent in english, and he did not go to london to learn english. he moved to london because his wife wanted to raise an 'english speaking' family. Why she could not simply send the child to the ISM, like a lot of other milan and inter players have over the years i dont know. (the likes of weah, zenga, massaro, cafu have and at the moment mancini's sons are there.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.153.34.177 (talk) 18:13, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

National youth team appearances

I note that the infobox was recently edited by User:Palffy to remove his appearances for Ukraine's youth team with the edit summary: (I've never heard of Ukraine (Youth)....senior caps and goals only...)

As the player Manual of Style clearly includes international appearances at under-16 level should this edit not be reverted? Daemonic Kangaroo 19:35, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Well, I have several issues with that edit. Leaving it at Ukraine (Youth) is completely unacceptable--a distinction between the various age levels must be made and properly sourced (many sources exist for Shevas senior NT record..). Secondly, as far as I'm aware, whenever an U-18 or an U-21 player gets his first cap for the main squad, then his youth record is typically erased in place of his senior team record. Lastly, it was never discussed to include the youth AND the senior team record on the infobox (so for instance if you personally do source the youth caps/goals and put them in proper format, I will formally bring up the matter on the WikiProject Football board as to whether the youth caps are in fact necessary). If you are interested as to how the youth record appeared on the template, it happened in this edit and as far as I can tell, this addition came out of the blue, either to give an example that youth records are allowed in such an infobox for youth players or that they are allowed for all players, including those that have appeared in the senior squad. --Palffy 19:55, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

chelsea fee

From Shevs page: "The fee was disclosed on the official website of UEFA as €30 million, which would make it the most expensive transfer in English football."

If the fee was 30 million EUROS as that says then no, it would not make it the "most expensive transfer in English football".

08-08-07

Ukrainian SSR

Dudesleeper, you cannot deny that Andriy Shevchenko was born in the Ukrainian SSR. Why are you deleting it? We try stick to specifics in Wikipedia and Ukrainian SSR implies the Soviet Union. --Boguslav (talk) 23:12, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Question: What does Sheva himself say? Because, as illogical as this may sound, he has an opinion on what to call himself. Although, to avoid confusion, we should put what someone has already suggested, "Ukraine (part of USSR at the time)" or something like that. That way anyone who comes to this page, regardless of their opinion on the matter, can understand it. Elsonlam1 (talk) 00:03, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

goalscorer in the history of European club competition

He is the third-highest goalscorer in the history of European club competition with 60, behind Gerd Müller and Filippo Inzaghi.[1]. This information is out of date. Can someone fix it? 77.86.120.186 (talk) 22:34, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

AC Milan loan?

Please don't update his page until it is official. Several news sites have only reported that there are rumors going around. This isn't conclusive nor does it mean that an agreement has been made. Gcarini (talk) 17:49, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Again, as much as I love the history he had with Milan and as much as I'm a Milan fan, he's not a player with Milan. Please stop editing this page and making this revision. At least he's not yet. If it happens officially, then post it. Gcarini (talk) 09:50, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

I took out the 'good luck andrei' part. hardly relevant. 19:56, 23 August 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Boils (talk • contribs)

I've semi-protected the page for 36 hours, given the rash of anon edits. The transfer's not official. Details still need to be finalized and the player needs to pass his physical. Editors can't be jumping to conclusions per WP:CRYSTAL. Thanks. --Madchester (talk) 20:23, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

The transfer is now true. However, what you write (madchester) is true. I assume he will have no problem passing the physical, but you never know. However, it should only be updated until made clear on this website: http://www.lega-calcio.it/ita/trasferimenti08090.shtml (this is where official transfers are posted) Gcarini (talk) 06:53, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

I see that someone has posted his jersey number as 76 under his profile. Where did you get this information? I have seen no evidence he has been issued the number 76 jersey. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jdboone21 (talk • contribs) 12:37, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Filmography?!

According to this page he acted (will be acting?) in a russian/ukranian movie, is that correct? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.92.71.50 (talk) 09:01, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

Unsourced numbers

This article has a lot of unsourced goal tallys. That's why I added the ref-improve tag. --Ysangkok (talk) 20:54, 11 June 2012 (UTC)

Wrong link #25

Reference 25 seems to be linking to the wrong page. The link redirects me to http://www.dailymail.co.uk/money/markets/article-1590582/Smaller-companies-report-Thursday-close.html. I guess this is the correct link: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/moslive/article-400887/The-30-million-man.html I don't seem to be able to edit existing references, so I'm writing here to make you guys aware of this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.111.16.20 (talk) 21:41, 11 June 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the report of the error. I have made the change for you. Keith D (talk) 22:03, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

Copyright problem removed

Prior content in this article duplicated one or more previously published sources. The material was copied from: www.insideworldsoccer.com/2013/06/jose-mourinho-chelsea-shevchenko-samuel-etoo.html. Copied or closely paraphrased material has been rewritten or removed and must not be restored, unless it is duly released under a compatible license. (For more information, please see "using copyrighted works from others" if you are not the copyright holder of this material, or "donating copyrighted materials" if you are.) For legal reasons, we cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or published material; such additions will be deleted. Contributors may use copyrighted publications as a source of information, and according to fair use may copy sentences and phrases, provided they are included in quotation marks and referenced properly. The material may also be rewritten, but only if it does not infringe on the copyright of the original or plagiarize from that source. Therefore such paraphrased portions must provide their source. Please see our guideline on non-free text for how to properly implement limited quotations of copyrighted text. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously, and persistent violators will be blocked from editing. While we appreciate contributions, we must require all contributors to understand and comply with these policies. Thank you. Diannaa (talk) 02:20, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

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