Talk:Andreja Pejić

They?

What is it with the ridiculously ambiguous "they" used throughout the entire article? It seems like a marketing ploy, an overly simplistic attempt at really stressing this model's androgyny. Either that, or this article was written by someone whose first language is not English. In any case, this is meant to be an encyclopedia, not a vanity website or a myspace page. Please, rectify this nonsense. [Andrej Pejic will most certainly have an official gender in their passport.] Oulipal (talk) 00:41, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

AHEM. "They" is perfectly valid English. Also, there are plenty of transgender folks who haven't been able to get their legal documents updated for various reasons, particularly those who are non-binary. You could suggest their gender identity is invalid because the state doesn't recognize it, but that's awfully rude.

Anyway. What IS Andrej's prefered pronoun? Andrej doesn't have one:

"I guess professionally I've left my gender open to artistic interpretation".
--Vogue, Aug 2011

"One of the flaws of the society is we like to define someone on their race or on their gender or on their appearance — all things that really aren’t the biggest part of a person’s whole being. I don’t get offended by being called ‘her.’ I don’t get offended by being called ‘him.’ But usually, for consistency, they use ‘he'."
--City News Toronto, Oct 2011

"When you look in the mirror, do you think of yourself more as a man or a woman?" "I like to keep my options open. I see myself." "So you don't see a gender?" "It's not that important." ABC News, Sep 2011

In lieu of a stated preference, the AP and NYTimes style guides say:

• "If no preference is known, use the pronouns consistent with the way the subject lives publicly." -NYTimes
• "If that preference is not expressed, use the pronoun consistent with the way the individuals live publicly." -Associated Press

But that doesn't clarify things either. --Hirsutism (talk) 21:51, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

If we can resolve it in another way (i.e. given the subject has no clear personal preference and the way they 'live publicly' is also unclear) I suggest we go with what other sources use which according to above is more commonly 'he' or a male pronoun. Nil Einne (talk) 23:14, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

An alternative is to avoid using pronouns altogether, cf. Kate Bornstein. 129.67.180.246 (talk) 14:11, 23 April 2012 (UTC)

"They" and "their" are gender neutral plural pronouns that are sometimes resorted to when the sex of the subject is unknown. Many of the sentences in this artical are written as they would be if the subject were plural, which is confusing; some sentences read as if they were about Pejic and his brother. This article needs a rewrite. Pejic is male--Drvanthorp (talk) 21:57, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

We have a policy on what pronouns to use, it's at MOS:IDENTITY. Limiting my research just to the use of pronouns, Pejic has expressed in at least one case a view of "I really don't care" here, and is said here to use him/his pronouns for zirself. I'd support the consistent use of him/his in the article as a result, barring other data to the contrary, which is what the NYT does as well here. --j⚛e decker^talk 22:44, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

He may claim that it's up to "artistic interpretation," but if he is biologically a male, then he is a male. His mother refers to him as her son, so that would mean that he is biologically (most likely) a male. Dressing in women's clothes does not make him a woman, any more than it made Chris Crocker a woman. No offense, but there are plenty of homosexual men who dress in drag or wear women's clothes just like Andrej Pejic. Unless they expressively identify as transgender or intersex, then they are still referred to as a "he." Until it's verified otherwise, I don't see why there should be any debate about this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.95.203.214 (talk) 02:53, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

Pejic says they prefer female pronouns in this article [1]. should someone change it then? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.118.101.65 (talk) 21:09, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

Although I believe "they" was the correct pronoun to use with the information available prior to today, the interview referred to by the previous anon does state an unambiguous pronoun preference of "she". By my understanding of MOS:IDENTITY, I went ahead and changed the two "they"s on this page to "she"s and included a link concerning pronouns. I did not state anything about gender as Pejic specifically declined to state a gender, only a preferred pronoun. I am not sure about a couple things here: First off I stated the article was published in "October 2013", which by checking references in Google one can see it was, although the article itself does not state its publication date and it's worth noting that the comment concerning pronouns was added to the article on Nov. 5, a few weeks after initial publication (See: [2]). Also, I added the note about pronouns to the end of the "Career" section, an arbitrary and probably incorrect place to put it. It would probably make the most sense to have an explicit section describing Pejic's gender identity and her history of modeling with the presentation of either/both genders. Awk (talk) 23:53, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

Name pronunciation

• I've provided a source that undeniably shows Andrej pronouncing his name An-DREY PEJ-ick; if you insist that he's pronouncing it wrong, please remove the source.Rebbing (talk) 19:06, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

• It's PAY-ITCH (like the two words)... This pronunciation is really common sense in the Balkans 77.105.25.86 (talk) 15:53, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

Bosnian or Serbian?

Is Pejić Bosnian Australian or Serbian Australian? There seems to be some dispute, judging by recent edits. Do we go by current location of birthplace, location of birthplace at date of birth, ethnic identity, parenthood or what? Do we have a reliable reference to go by for this? --David Edgar (talk) 15:41, 11 October 2012 (UTC)

I just edited this. If he is an Australian citizen, then he is Australian. Bosnian and Croatian are ethnic backgrounds. So that would make him an Australian of Bosnian/Croat background. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.95.203.214 (talk) 02:55, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

Wikipedia is an "online encyclopedia," not a marketing tool or PR page

To whoever deleted the "Personal life" part, unless you can provide a link which says otherwise, it should/will stay up. And if an article quoted on Tumblr isn't a "valid source," then logically, all Tumblr sources will be deleted from this page as well.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.148.91.249 (talk) 20:26, 17 March 2013 (UTC)

He or she?

Is it he or she? 78.2.120.18 (talk) 17:40, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

See above discussion − Nicoli Maege (talk) 18:07, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Following the Manual of Style will render this article nonsensical.

I understand that the MOS says we should honor Andreja Pejic's now-firmly-expressed preference for female pronouns throughout the entire article, during discussions of all periods of her life, in light of the fact that she now identifies as a transwoman and has had sex reassignment surgery. However, the major reason Pejic was notable in the first place is that, when biologically male and normally referred to as such despite her (then his) androgyny, she sometimes modeled women's clothing and was depicted artistically as if she (then he) were female. If we don't acknowledge the specific way in which Pejic was identified at that time, rather than now, many of the passages in the article become nonsensical. For example, the article currently states that "Concerns were expressed that customers would read Pejić as a topless woman." Well, of course they would! According to the article, the magazine in question featured the image of a woman removing her top. The article is, essentially, in large part specifically about how the public perceived Pejic's gender and sex and also about how that gender and sex has changed over time. The article will be incoherent unless it contains specific information about that, even if it violates the letter of the MOS that requires us to only refer to Pejic as female. I believe that information can be included in a way that is still respectful of Pejic and of her identity. --DavidK93 (talk) 17:03, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

I think you answered your own concern. You managed to write this without misgendering her. You can say that a person was perceived as another gender in the past, and therefore was what caused the media attention without using the wrong pronouns in referring to them (similar to how Norah Vincent doesn't get misgendered in her Wikipedia article). Andreja's already identified as being trans in the article, people understand what that means and how it would apply to her past. 99.237.234.76 (talk) 21:36, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

Fake wedding to Rembrandt Duran

This stupid publicity stunt (Rembrandt's idea, I guarantee it, in an attempt to further his career) probably deserves mention in the article. Anyone else have any thoughts? http://nymag.com/thecut/2013/02/andrej-pejic-not-married-despite-instagram-pic.html --RThompson82 (talk) 02:00, 21 September 2015 (UTC)

Height?

are we sure her height is 185cm? older articles (and even her page or chadwick models and possibly more agencies) say 188. -- 2A02:587:DC08:9900:84D:8784:8B5B:CE93 (talk) 21:10, 22 August 2016 (UTC)

That is what the source we have says. Can you provide links to those other sources? Maybe we could then compare and see which is more reliably sourced? Cheers, -- Irn (talk) 21:48, 22 August 2016 (UTC)

http://chadwickmodels.com/models/andreja-pejic/

there. it says 1882A02:587:DC06:A900:8485:BBB4:B89A:8E66 (talk) 16:08, 1 September 2016 (UTC)

The difference between 6'1" and 6'2" is pretty small; it's difficult to say which is the correct measurement, and neither source is more authoritative. However, I found a New York Times article giving her height at 6'1", and I think we should go with that. Rebbing 16:24, 1 September 2016 (UTC)

yes but if you google" andreja pejic height 6'2" youll see a lot of articles saying 6'2 including a tumblr one(first result) which claims to be official. 2A02:587:DC06:A900:C44C:7314:4B7C:999 (talk) 20:12, 3 September 2016 (UTC)

The only Tumblr page I saw was this, which, in addition to being a Tumblr blog, is clearly not official: "This is a tumblr dedicated to Andreja Pejic." Anyway, which do you think is more reliable? The New York Times or Tumblr and some arbitrary hits on Google? Hint: If you say "Google," you'll have to retake this class next semester. Rebbing 20:30, 3 September 2016 (UTC)

you do have a point. thus my best hypothesis is that the previous "188" label was essentially a lie. i believe i read somewhere that this is common for model agencies. sometimes if they have a good model they list him/her as just a bit taller.

but now that she has come out as a woman and no longer does male modeling it's easier to use her real height. after all very few women (even models) are 188 tall 2A02:587:DC03:2800:4922:E298:72FA:F609 (talk) 23:11, 7 September 2016 (UTC)

It could be an exaggeration, but my money would be on physical fluctuation, postural variation, measurement error, or rounding—especially if, somewhere between the ruler and that website, it was converted to inches. Rebbing 23:42, 7 September 2016 (UTC)

Andreja's weight

what about the weight mentioned in the source i provided? it may be a source of a bit questionable integrity ..but it's the only one we got. and it does seem damn likely that 68 kg is her weight Adrian234567 (talk) 14:25, 16 September 2016 (UTC)

Hello, Adrian234567! Unlike height, weight fluctuates, sometimes significantly; in my opinion, that makes it an unsuitable statistic for an infobox. (Wrestlers and other weight-classed athletes stand out as meaningful exceptions to my rule, but their weight is measured regularly and the number itself—not merely their physical appearance—is significant in their careers.) Even if we chose to include weight, I don't think the Tumblr post—a screenshot of a video clip with statistics visible on-screen—is usable:

• To begin with, the Tumblr in question is merely a fan site, and not even a well-known one, so we can't rely on its claims at all.
• Even if we could trust it, it doesn't identify the video clip—is it a fan video? a news broadcast? does its author have a reputation for fact-checking?—so we can't rely on the statistics from it.
• Finally, there's no date for the video screenshot, but, from the Tumblr post, we know that it's at least four years old. In my opinion, that would make it worthless even if it were from reliable sources; a guess would have a better chance of correctly stating her current weight: few people maintain the same weight over four (or more) years, and Ms. Pejić likely started taking estrogen during that time, which could have had impact on her weight and body composition. If we could say, "In 2012, Pejić weighed 68 kg," that might be encyclopedic, but, with this source, the most we can know is that she weighed 68 kg sometime before 2013.

Rebbing 17:03, 16 September 2016 (UTC)