Talk:André Cheron (actor)
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Discussion transferred from User talk:MelanieN#Need advice edit
Hi. Long time no speak. I've run into an issue, and quite frankly, haven't the foggiest idea how to proceed. I created a small article on a French-born American actor, André Cheron (actor) last year. I used the diacritic accent for that's how AFI lists him, and the other two sources (although one is imdb, so not entirely reliable), also use the diacritic. Yesterday, another editor, without discussion, moved the page to without the diacritic, stating the reason, "subject died in the United States after spending his entire film career in Hollywood productions --- no indication he was ever billed using an accented given name".
My issue is that the former title is the correct one. All sources point to it, in fact AFI carefully points out that in some films he was billed without the accent, which means that in other films he was billed with it, which kind of makes the rationale for the page move incorrect. Normally, I would simply revert, and ask to begin a discussion until consensus is reached. However, that option is not available to me in this case. Since the other editor would also be unable to revert, any thoughts on how to proceed? Thanks in advance. Onel5969 TT me 14:26, 14 May 2016 (UTC)
- (talk page stalker) @Onel5969: Looking at the first 60 hits in Google Books on actor "Andre Cheron", I count 3 cases spelled with accent aigu, André Cheron, the rest are without. What do you find, Onel? Thus, it would appear there is a strong case for the move to the anglicized spelling Andre Cheron (actor) per WP:UE and maintaining a {{R from title with diacritics}} at André Cheron (actor). But is André Chéron WP:PRIMARYTOPIC? If yes, and no DAB page is created in Andre Cheron, then Andre Cheron (actor) deserves a hatnote on André Chéron. Sam Sailor Talk! 15:43, 14 May 2016 (UTC)
- Hi Sam Sailor - it's difficult to ascertain simply from the google books (or other) search results. Take for example this source, which on the search engine is shown without the accent, but when you actually view the source, the accent is used. To me, the over-riding rationale is the AFI source, which, while not infallible, is still the best source for older film info. Using their methodology of using the main name of an actor, and then annotating the filmography with "credited as" with the variant. Onel5969 TT me 16:48, 14 May 2016 (UTC)
- Apologies for moving the page without a discussion, especially since the move violated my own tendency to hew as close as possible to the AFI Catalog. My original intention was to make Andre Cheron (actor) a redirect to André Cheron (actor), but after seeing the unaccented form of his name in the credits of 1938's Artists and Models Abroad, I decided to move the main title header. The great majority of Cheron's film appearances were unbilled and it is likely that the only film credits in which his name was accented would have been in the Hollywood-made French-language versions that cast him in more-prominent supporting roles, but that would still nullify the statement, "no indication he was ever billed using an accented given name". Taking into consideration a possible administrative view of this matter, subsequent discussions may be held at Talk:Andre Cheron (actor). As a point of interest, three related examinations of a topic similar to this one may be viewed at Talk:Malin Åkerman#Requested move (2007) as well as at Åkerman and Proposed Move (2010). —Roman Spinner (talk)(contribs) 19:28, 14 May 2016 (UTC)
- No worries, Roman Spinner - I appreciate the work you do on film articles (even if I don't always agree with you). I agree with you regarding the French versions of films; I haven't done all the research yet, but the contemporaneous sources I have checked seem to mirror the billing as in the AFI filmography. But no sense continuing to clog up MelanieN's talk page (and MelanieN, as far as I'm concerned, feel free to delete this entire thread). We can continue this on the article's talk page. Onel5969 TT me 00:59, 15 May 2016 (UTC)
- Thank you for the understanding reply, Onel5969 and, since Wikipedia will be around for centuries, I am transferring this thread to Talk:Andre Cheron (actor) for historical reference in case the matter comes up again in future indefinite. In consultation with Sam Sailor and Melanie N, of course, since this is her talk page, we could request a speedy deletion of the André Cheron (actor) redirect, so that the main title could be moved back to its original form, if everyone agrees. —Roman Spinner (talk)(contribs) 02:24, 15 May 2016 (UTC)
- As I said on my talk page, I have no opinion on what the title ought to be. I do suggest that any alternate titles should be left as redirects. Let me know if your consensus here needs any admin help. --MelanieN (talk) 22:10, 15 May 2016 (UTC)
- I am grateful for your kind offer and, since it was my initial move that started this matter, I will support whatever course Onel5969 decides to take, with input and consultation from Sam Sailor and any others who may chance upon this discussion. Also, I fully agree with you as to the benefit of leaving redirects. —Roman Spinner (talk)(contribs) 19:29, 16 May 2016 (UTC)
- As I said on my talk page, I have no opinion on what the title ought to be. I do suggest that any alternate titles should be left as redirects. Let me know if your consensus here needs any admin help. --MelanieN (talk) 22:10, 15 May 2016 (UTC)
- Thank you for the understanding reply, Onel5969 and, since Wikipedia will be around for centuries, I am transferring this thread to Talk:Andre Cheron (actor) for historical reference in case the matter comes up again in future indefinite. In consultation with Sam Sailor and Melanie N, of course, since this is her talk page, we could request a speedy deletion of the André Cheron (actor) redirect, so that the main title could be moved back to its original form, if everyone agrees. —Roman Spinner (talk)(contribs) 02:24, 15 May 2016 (UTC)
- No worries, Roman Spinner - I appreciate the work you do on film articles (even if I don't always agree with you). I agree with you regarding the French versions of films; I haven't done all the research yet, but the contemporaneous sources I have checked seem to mirror the billing as in the AFI filmography. But no sense continuing to clog up MelanieN's talk page (and MelanieN, as far as I'm concerned, feel free to delete this entire thread). We can continue this on the article's talk page. Onel5969 TT me 00:59, 15 May 2016 (UTC)
- Apologies for moving the page without a discussion, especially since the move violated my own tendency to hew as close as possible to the AFI Catalog. My original intention was to make Andre Cheron (actor) a redirect to André Cheron (actor), but after seeing the unaccented form of his name in the credits of 1938's Artists and Models Abroad, I decided to move the main title header. The great majority of Cheron's film appearances were unbilled and it is likely that the only film credits in which his name was accented would have been in the Hollywood-made French-language versions that cast him in more-prominent supporting roles, but that would still nullify the statement, "no indication he was ever billed using an accented given name". Taking into consideration a possible administrative view of this matter, subsequent discussions may be held at Talk:Andre Cheron (actor). As a point of interest, three related examinations of a topic similar to this one may be viewed at Talk:Malin Åkerman#Requested move (2007) as well as at Åkerman and Proposed Move (2010). —Roman Spinner (talk)(contribs) 19:28, 14 May 2016 (UTC)
- Hi Sam Sailor - it's difficult to ascertain simply from the google books (or other) search results. Take for example this source, which on the search engine is shown without the accent, but when you actually view the source, the accent is used. To me, the over-riding rationale is the AFI source, which, while not infallible, is still the best source for older film info. Using their methodology of using the main name of an actor, and then annotating the filmography with "credited as" with the variant. Onel5969 TT me 16:48, 14 May 2016 (UTC)
I enjoy (for the most part, some of it I do simply because I see the necessity of it) the work I do on Wikipedia, but it is discussions like this which makes me proud of this project. I'm not adamant about the name, but I do think that his birth name had the accent, and AFI uses the accent, so that should be the page name, with redirects for the name without the accent. Onel5969 TT me 01:39, 17 May 2016 (UTC)
- When good will is present and we assume good faith, all (or at least most) controversies can be resolved amicably. Let us ask MelanieN: Since I moved the main title without a discussion, would you consider deleting the André Cheron (actor) redirect without going through RM, so that you, Onel5969, or I can move the present title back to its original form? (Andre Cheron (actor) would, of course, still remain, but as a redirect). We should also consult with Sam Sailor about any possible objections --- otherwise it would have to be RM. Earlier, I pointed to lengthy discussions (Talk:Malin Åkerman#Proposed Move (2010)) centering upon higher-profile personalities (Joanna Pacuła and Rade Šerbedžija use diacritics when acting in homegrown films, but not in international productions; Andrei Serban, who has lived in the US since 1970, is not listed with a diacritic even at the English-language Romania online website, yet his Wikipedia entry lists him as Andrei Șerban). Linguistic nationalists will vigorously add diacritics even to Americanized stage names (for a number of years Wikipedia carried main headers Béla Lugosi and Ramón Novarro). In the case of André Cheron (actor), however, I don't foresee any such controversies — his AFI Catalog entry lists his name with an accent which is an important/key element for film people. Having already presented more arguments than necessary here (shades of the Julian Castro/Julián Castro discussion you mentioned), I will end at this point and await a resolution. —Roman Spinner (talk)(contribs) 11:02, 17 May 2016 (UTC)