Talk:Amon Tobin/GA1

GA Review

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I will be reviewing this article. Initially, it looks good already. Just some prose and linking issues and I haven't gone over the references yet, but it doesn't look like there's too much to be done. – Ms. Sarita ^Confer 21:45, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

GA review (see here for criteria)

1. It is reasonably well written.

   a (prose): b (MoS):

   See my comments in the Prose section below.

   There is a lot of Wikilinking in the article. A lot of the terms linked do not necessarily need to be.

2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.

   a (references): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR):

   See my comments in the References section below.

3. It is broad in its coverage.

   a (major aspects): b (focused):

4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.

   Fair representation without bias:

5. It is stable.

   No edit wars etc.:

6. It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate.

   a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):

   The Chaos Theory - Splinter Cell 3 Soundtrack image needs a fair-use rationale for this article.

7. Overall:

   Pass/Fail:

   The review is complete. This article will be placed on hold for seven days. If you need more time, let me know. I know that I'm strict on the referencing, but I assure you that it's necessary, especially with BLPs. Feel free to leave me a message if you have questions/complaints/comments. I made a few minor revisions to the article so that they wouldn't have to be listed here. Good luck on improving the article! – Ms. Sarita ^Confer 04:54, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

   I took care of what I could. The rest is up to other editors. The seven days is almost up. I am going to extend the hold for five more days (until December 9, 2008) but I will not fail the article as long as improvements are being made. The references are the most important, so please take care of those as soon as possible. And please communicate with me. If you need more time, all you have to do is ask. Good luck with the rest of the improvements. – Ms. Sarita ^Confer 20:17, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

   It's now December 9 and the improvements for references has barely been touched. Because of WP:BLP, these need to be taken care of. I care more about the references than I do about the prose and Wikilinking. This article can't stay on hold forever. I am giving two more days (a total of two weeks) for someone to take care of the references. After that, unfortunately, I will have to fail the article. If this occurs, you are more than welcome to renominate it after these things have been taken care of and then leave me a note so I can review it again (that way, it's not waiting another month for someone else to review it). Let me know... – Ms. Sarita ^Confer 17:39, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

   I forgot to mention that the non-free use rationale for the cover art of the Chaos Theory - Splinter Cell 3 soundtrack is also of utmost importance. This needs to be taken care of as well before I would pass the article. – Ms. Sarita ^Confer 17:43, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

   The article looks good. I'm going to pass the article, but one thing that you two should look at is WP:NPOV. I don't think that everyone likes Tobin's music and that should be reflected in the article. But I don't feel the article wildly violates that policy as of now. However, I would work on that before nominating it for FA status, if that is being considered. Good job, both of you. I admire your hard work on this article and appreciate your patience. Feel free to contact me if you have any questions/complaints. Take care. – Ms. Sarita ^Confer 03:34, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

Thank you both for the real hard work (I'm mostly just a janitor, for this article). I also passed along a barnstar to Sebquantic, wherever he or she may be, for all of the rewrite they undertook at User:Sebquantic/Sandbox in October. See you all around :) -- Quiddity (talk) 06:38, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

Prose

Lead

• In his name, the reference after the first sentence displays an accent above the 'u' in "Araujo". What is the reasoning behind not putting this accent in?
• His date of birth should be in this section: Amon Adonai Santos de Araujo Tobin (born February 7, 1972), better known as Amon Tobin...

Early career (1995—1997)

• AllMusic.com, in a review written after Tobin had obtained more critical success, called them "head-turning". This sentence seems a bit awkward. What about, A review written by Allmusic, after Tobin had obtained more critical success, said that the remixes were "head-turning".
• The larger Ninja Tune record label was growing in the United Kingdom at that time... Another awkward sentence for me. I would say, The larger Ninja Tune record label had been growing in the United Kingdom at the time...

Defining albums (1997—2002)

• This section seems relatively short compared to the other sections. Are there any chances of expanding it?
  • Don't worry about this, unless you actually want to expand it. – Ms. Sarita ^Confer 01:41, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

Montreal (2002—Present)

• His current residence as of 2008... I would probably say, As of 2008... The original sentence could be considered dated.
• In 2008, Tobin announced he was working on a new video games soundtrack... Is this possibly the Need for Speed: Undercover soundtrack? Maybe this should be updated since the game has been released.
  • Don't worry about this either. I don't think this sentence is talking about the Need for Speed soundtrack, but if it is, the video game should be mentioned and cited. Either way, this entire sentence needs a citation. – Ms. Sarita ^Confer 01:41, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

Musical style and influences

• ...writing about his use of the technique, said that he has ... It should be ...wrote about his use of this technique, saying that Tobin has...
• ...began his gradual shift away... It should be ...began the gradual shift away...

Live performances

• Not everyone knows who Destiny's Child was. Perhaps just a couple of descriptive words here, like "...R&B group Destiny's Child."

References

• Dates should be unlinked in the references.
  • The only time this occurs is with the sound recording citations. I couldn't find a way to unlink them. It must be something within the citation template. So, I'm crossing it off. It isn't that big of a deal and can be handled later on if an editor decides to take this through the FA process. – Ms. Sarita ^Confer 18:01, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
• Because you referenced so much with a sound recording (and because this interview is so long), is it possible to find a written transcript of this interview? Just curious...
  • I found this entry concerning the interview, but I could not find any transcript. Not going to check this off, but this is my answer. Rtyq2 (talk) 19:46, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
    • No worries. I'll leave it as is in case you do find something, but it isn't a big deal and it won't make or break the outcome of the review (i.e. I won't fail the article if there is no transcript of the interview available). I was only curious since I had the biggest problem with the sound recording reference, but it seems like you're taking care of it. – Ms. Sarita ^Confer 19:52, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Early career (1995—1997)

• The first set of references in the beginning paragraph of this section need to be put in numerical order.
• The first three sentences of the first paragraph are explained in reference 1 (the "Amon Tobin, Brazilian star in the electronica scene" article). The fourth sentence is cited by reference 3 (the "Ninjatune Artists - Amon Tobin Biography" article). I would move reference 1 to the end of the third sentence and move reference 3 to the end of the fourth sentence. You can remove reference 2 (the "Amon Tobin" article from SoundOnSound.com) because it is unnecessary.
• ...although he was "not really involved in the [music] scene" at that time." This is supposed to be cited by reference 4 (one of the MP3 sound recordings) and I listened to the interview from 12:00 to 14:00 and didn't hear anything that references the quote.
• Under his original moniker Cujo, he released a series of drum and bass remixes on 12-inch vinyl. This only needs one reference.
• ...originally released in 1996 by Ninebar to a limited release of 5,000 copies. This is supposed to be cited by reference 5 (the same sound recording, I believe). I listened from 05:40 to 08:00 and did not hear anything that references the last part of the sentence (which is what I'm assuming you wanted to do). Let me know.
• DJ Food and Funki Porcini reportedly noticed Tobin's work on Adventures in Foam and prompted the label to approach him. Ninja Tune signed Tobin in late 1996, this time under his abbreviated name "Amon Tobin". Reference 8 (the sound recording) can be removed. The other reference cites the first sentence and the latter sentence is obvious by looking at his discography.
• The album was released for a fourth time in 2002, again by Ninja Tune. Not seeing that reference 6 (the ""Adventures in Foam Review" article) substantiates this sentence. I would remove it.

Montreal (2002—Present)

• Otis Hart of Dusted Magazine said that Tobin's style of producing had come into its own. He acclaimed Tobin's "refined sense of tempo" compared to his previous albums. This needs to be cited.
• He also used instruments from the countries that the game's chapters take place in; for instance, Japanese flutes in Japan. Maybe I missed it, but reference 18 (the "Q&A: Chaos Theory composer Amon Tobin" article) does not reflect this sentence.
• Also contributing to the album were the string quartet Kronos Quartet, drummer Stefan Schneider, and harpist Sarah Page. Reference 23 (the "Foley Room" article) and 24 (the "Amon Tobin Meets Kronos Quartet in Foley Room" article) both support this sentence. You can remove a reference. Also, is it Sarah Page or Sarah Pagé?
• In 2008, Tobin announced he was working on a new video games soundtrack, and a movie soundtrack. This needs to be cited. Also take a look at my related comment in the "Prose" section above.

Musical style and influences

• There's a set of references in the first paragraph that need to be put in numerical order.
• Reference 26 (the "United States: The Legal Smack Down On Music Sampling: Is The Age Of Hip Hop Over?" article): Not exactly sure what this article is being used to cite.
  • I replaced it with, yet again, the radio interview at 29 minutes and 10 seconds. It seems the old reference required some sort of signing up to to see the whole thing. Rtyq2 (talk) 23:05, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
• He does not come from a music family, nor has he had any formal training in music theory. This needs to be referenced, otherwise it is OR. I see how reference 29 says he hasn't had any formal training, but not that he does not come from a music family (but both are supported by reference 4 at 12:30).
• After receiving a sampler, he started to produce drum and bass music in his bedroom as a teenager. Not seeing how reference 29 (the "Amon Tobin: interview op KindaMuzik" article) supports this sentence.
• "I wasn't from that time and I wasn't from that culture." Where exactly, in reference 30 (the sound recording), was this heard? Maybe I wasn't listening closely enough...
• ...and he says that movies by directors David Lynch and Roman Polanski also influence his music. Reference 29 says that he is influenced by some of Lynch's films but that he only likes the films that Polanski makes.

Live performances

• Many songs from the original recording were omitted because of copyright issues with the original artists, including Destiny's Child. Reference 33 (the press release) substantiates this. You can remove the other reference, since only one is necessary.
• "After months of back and forth and despite everyone’s best efforts the mix was in danger of being edited into the ground to accommodate big labels and publishers. Rather than release a compromised version commercially, the decision was made to give it away for free instead." (From amontobin.com) This needs a citation.

Discography

• In the first paragraph (under the discography listing), reference 35 (the "Amon Tobin's Homer is a Serious Head Trip" article) is listed twice.
• In reference 37 (the "The Italian Job SOUNDTRACK" listing), the track titles and artists to the soundtrack are posted by a reviewer, not by Amazon.com. This is unreliable.
  • I watched the end credits of the DVD and "Saboteur" is listed. So, I added the reference. – Ms. Sarita ^Confer 17:33, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
• In reference 40 (the Taxidermia PDF file), I was unable to locate that EP was made available on his website for free.

Miscellaneous fixes

• The image Image:Amon Tobin Ososphère 29-09-2006.jpg from commons is currently unused.
  • I'm thinking replace the image in the "Live performances" section? This image seems to be more clear whereas the one already in the article doesn't have much clarity. What do you two think? – Ms. Sarita ^Confer 21:28, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
    • Why not both? Rtyq2 (talk) 22:00, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
      • Uhh...I dunno. I'm not really feeling it. But let's wait and see what Quiddity thinks. – Ms. Sarita ^Confer 22:08, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
        • The other image (Image:Amon tobin luxemburg.jpg) is very, ummm, 'atmospheric'. It could be argued that this provides implicit information (?), but it doesn't offer as much obvious detail as the Ososphere shot. Having 3 photos of Amon wearing a hat definitely establishes a trend, though! I'd favor leading that "Live performances" section with the Ososphere shot, and placing the Luxemburg shot elsewhere in the article, if you can determine where else to fit it in... -- Quiddity (talk) 22:22, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
          • I am in agreement with this. Let me know what you two want to do. – Ms. Sarita ^Confer 22:41, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

I'm actually fine with how it is right now, I don't really see anywhere else the Luxemburg image could go in the article. Also, I uploading a short sample of Back From Space that I added to the article. Rtyq2 (talk) 23:19, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

Well, how about getting the GA review finished so I can pass the article. It's so close! ;-) – Ms. Sarita ^Confer 23:55, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

Part of me almost wants to just remove the last 2 poorly sourced sentences, but I'm doubtful that they aren't true. I'm still searching some articles and references, but I don't see much that supports them. If you guys don't see anything, just remove them? Rtyq2 (talk) 00:23, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

If you can't find any sources supporting these statements, they have to be removed, unfortunately (especially when dealing with a quote). WP:BLP is pretty strict... – Ms. Sarita ^Confer 01:13, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

Okay, go ahead and make it GA. Rtyq2 (talk) 02:45, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

Early career (1995—1997)

• "Rio de Janeiro, Brazil", "London", "Brighton, England", and "Ninja Tune" are already linked in the lead section.
• I don't really feel like "record label" needs to be Wikilinked. What do you think?
• Does "cover art" really need to be Wikilinked?

Defining albums (1997–2002)

• The album Supermodified needs to be mentioned.

Montreal (2002—Present)

• In all previous sections, cities and countries have been Wikilinked. But "Montreal, Canada", "San Francisco", and "Seattle" are not linked in this section. It needs to be consistent.
• Does the word "flutes" need to be Wikilinked?

Musical style and influences

• "Sampling" is Wikilinked here but not in the lead section. This should be reversed: the word linked in the lead and not linked in this section, or not linked at all, since it is explained.
• "Jazz" is Wikilinked here but not in "Defining albums (1997—2002)" section. This should also be reversed.
• "...including motorbikes, tigers, insects..." "Motorbikes" and "tigers" are Wikilinked, but not "insects"?
• "Bass and drums" is Wikilinked earlier in the article.

Live performaces

• In almost all previous sections, cities and countries have been Wikilinked. But "Melbourne, Australia" is not linked in this section. It needs to be consistent.

Discography

• "Solid Steel" already Wikilinked in a previous section.