Talk:American Song Contest

Article improvements

I re-wrote the article with the information currently available from the May 2021 news articles and EBU/Eurovision press releases to remove a maintenance tag. I also fixed the table to align with WP:ACCESSABILITY. I think it would be helpful if someone who has more time could write an source an Origins/History section before the Production section briefly explaining the Eurovision Song Contest with the further information hatnote to History of the Eurovision Song Contest. It would also be helpful to include some information from 2019 and 2020 about the American Song Contest in this section before it was officially confirmed for NBC today and where Logo TV and Netflix aired/streamed past ESC contests and a mention to Netflix's film Eurovision Song Contest: The Story of Fire Saga. Alucard 16_{❯❯❯ chat?} 03:53, 15 May 2021 (UTC)

I'm not very experienced when it comes to Wiki editing but if someone could please make a note regarding the Artist/Song change for Missouri it would be greatly appreciated. DJddog5 (talk) 17:11, 13 April 2022 (UTC)

Hey! Would it be a good idea to separate the Participants section and the actual Qualifying Rounds and Semi-Finals section? CeolAnGhra (talk) 16:26, 17 April 2022 (UTC)

Oh, nevermind. Someone already did it. CeolAnGhra (talk) 23:20, 25 April 2022 (UTC)

The "Other" American Song Contest

There is another event titled "American Song Contest," which is organized by the Embassy of Kyrgyzstan in the United States. Should we include a distinguisher tag with this as well? TreseTrese (talk) 16:08, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

yes we should 2601:2C2:900:4240:D8DE:4C24:7924:A04D (talk) 00:51, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

Entries table

This table is completely useless because it contains no information at all. I think we should wait for it to be included until we actually have any info. ―Jochem van Hees (talk) 08:45, 26 May 2021 (UTC)

Done. TreseTrese (talk) 04:46, 28 May 2021 (UTC)

International broadcasting

I don't understand why this should be its own section. It contains very little information (only a list of five countries – something that could just be a single sentence) and is not at all a big aspect of the contest, not like any of the other sections. I've been bold and merged it with the production section a few times now but every time it got reverted by an unregistered user without explanation. ―Jochem van Hees (talk) 00:40, 18 February 2022 (UTC)

Create a new page for ASC 2022

Hi,
I feel like we should merge the list of participants and dates of the 2022 shows into a new 'American Song Contest 2022' page, and the current page could be just kept to topics related to ASC as a contest, similar to the current Eurovision page.
Thanks!
POLARIS183 (talk) 19:55, 7 March 2022 (UTC)

This page is actually formatted more like a television show (since ASC is essentially that). As such, a page for each "season" typically only comes after the show has been renewed for a second season. Right now everything about the competition itself is related to the current year. Grk1011 (talk) 20:02, 7 March 2022 (UTC)

OK, so will we create two '22 and '23 pages next year?

Also, should we do a map of which countries have selected their song, and have been knocked out at which round?

Thanks!

POLARIS183 (talk) 16:07, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

This is not the Eurovision Song Contest. This is a singing competition inspired by Eurovision. It is a television show, not an event. Grk1011 (talk) 16:17, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

@Grk1011 actually might not be a bad idea to split this page into two. This page is already becoming quite big and the further into the show we go the bigger it will become. There is enough information that the two pages can stand on their own. In my sandbox is what a season/contest page could look like. The information there is only pertaining to the first contest with hatnotes linking to relevant sections of the parent page for more detail. The parent page needs some cleanup badly and splitting it into two could help with that. Alucard 16_{❯❯❯ chat?} 19:03, 19 March 2022 (UTC)

I think its typically because to frame a season page when you only have one, you need to duplicate all of the production section of the main article. Unlike events/shows with many seasons, every aspect about the development of show when there's only one season is part of that initial season. The article just barely satisfies WP:SIZERULE right now and it's mostly due to the tables, not the prose. I think it makes sense to wait it out and keep everything together for readability. Open to other thoughts. Grk1011 (talk) 13:01, 20 March 2022 (UTC)

I agree that it's to early to split the pages, but I think that a map is a good idea. Europe2016 ~ talk ~ Eurovision 08:04, 26 March 2022 (UTC)

File:ASC_2022_Map.svg has been created, and it's in use on the German-language page - could someone add it in? POLARIS183 (talk) 16:14, 27 April 2022 (UTC)

New info international broadcasting

Norway’s public TV channel NRK1 will broadcast the show and in Sweden the show will be broadcast no SVT1. 2001:8A0:F968:3601:CDD7:6A74:198C:7082 (talk) 11:26, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

Portugal’ public TV channel RTP1 will broadcast the show. 2001:8A0:F968:3601:CD64:77EA:7E45:6F3C (talk) 12:40, 14 March 2022 (UTC)

References

Languages

In the Eurovision Song Contest, next to the song column in a table that details all of the songs, the language of the song is featured. Due to the fact that it is confirmed that English will not be the only language that appears in the American Song Contest, shouldn't a language column be added to the songs table? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.3.116.208 (talk) 21:25, 18 March 2022 (UTC)

We probably should wait and see what languages the songs are in. So far all seem to be in English based on the clips except Puerto Rico's might be a mix of Spanish and English. Alucard 16_{❯❯❯ chat?} 18:57, 19 March 2022 (UTC)

Oops just saw this now. I already removed the language column. Most will be English, some will have phrases in other languages, etc, but it's not a critical part of the entry. No other American music competition has such column. Grk1011 (talk) 13:24, 23 March 2022 (UTC)

Some entries are not fully in English though, take for instance the entry from U.S. Virgin Islands which is a complete mixture of English, Spanish, and Virgin Islands Creole. Another case would be the entry from Arizona which is completely in Spanish, with only one line in English. I think it would be better to put a specific languages section, just like in Eurovision Wikipedia articles although majority of the songs are in English. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 103.168.39.6 (talk) 21:21, 11 April 2022 (GMT)

I feel given we now have a song almost completely in another and the contest been regional based (Like sister contest Eurovision); Language column is important part of the page, given the difference regional languages and diolect that have/will be used in the song contest. DJddog5 (talk) 05:13, 11 April 2022 (UTC)

I haven't found any peer US-centric articles that list the languages for a song competition show. Are there specific links/sources that discuss the language aspect as it relates to the show? If not, then it just seems like undue weight and/or a fun fact. Sources for each language will need to be provided at a minimum if the column is to be added back, as language is not listed anywhere on the ASC website. Grk1011 (talk) 13:32, 11 April 2022 (UTC)

The two main sourcs I've found that include the lyrics of the songs are the official YouTube channel of NBC , where the live ASC performances are being uploaded and its lyrics are included as subtitles, and Genius.com, where most of the lyrics are being transcripted. I think that it is important to include the languages for two reasons:

- As you said earlier, "this is a singing competition inspired by Eurovision". Even if this article is going to be treated as a television show, it should have a similar format as Eurovision and its sister contests when we're talking about languages.

- If languages are not included, readers might get confused if they're not familiar with the songs and may lead them to think the songs are fully in English. While PR, AZ or VI's song titles are in Spanish, they would not know if these are fully in Spanish (as in AZ) or partially in English (PR & VI). In the case of FL, its English title doesn't even refer to its usage of Spanish. Also, some important facts of the songs will be ommited, such as VI's inclusion of Virgin Islands Creole, MP's usage of a Chamorro word or OK's lines in Korean. 2806:1000:8002:C690:5483:7E26:799F:C159 (talk) 21:10, 11 April 2022 (UTC)

I guess I'm not sure why it's important? It's just one characteristic of the songs. Why not genre for example, which arguably would be more important to the reader/listener? In my mind, while based on Eurovision, this is completely separate and has a very specific audience that differs from Eurovision. Grk1011 (talk) 21:33, 11 April 2022 (UTC)

I don't know why the languages of the songs "are not important". It's the main element as it is the way each song is told, conveying specific feelings a different language may not portray the same way; genres are not included because assigning a specific genre to a song may be subject to debate, meanwhile, languages may be easily identified, reaching mutual consensus between users; someone can argue if a song is pop music, R&B or hip hop, however, they may not argue if the song is written in English or not as the lyrics prove them right or wrong. I agree that ASC and ESC are two different things, even if they're related in some way; however, completely erasing its languages from the article might seem excesive and restrictive.

When the languages were first deleted on 13:09, 23 March 2022, we didn't know if the rest of the songs had lines in other languages. However, we now know that at least one of the songs has been partially in another language in each episode. When they were readded on 04:37, 6 April 2022, edits and corrections that complemented the section were made by several users for 4~5 days before they were deleted again, this shows that I'm not the only one interested in the section and users are aware of its importance. 2806:1000:8002:C690:5483:7E26:799F:C159 (talk) 03:42, 12 April 2022 (UTC)

Languages are not important; "It's the main element as it is the way each song is told, conveying specific feelings a different language may not portray the same way" means nothing at all. Language is not an "element", and we don't do any kind of song analysis here anyway. Grk1011 is correct; it's simply not a relevant thing--and genre is probably more meaningful, but that also shouldn't be included. These articles typically go overboard on the detail, and the next thing I'm going to do is to remove these stupid MOS:FLAG violations. And whoever thought that those state flags are cute, think again. Drmies (talk) 03:47, 12 April 2022 (UTC)

So going through your logic, should we remove all the languages section in every Eurovision article since it's irrelevant? 103.168.39.6 (talk) 13:22, 12 April 2022 (UTC)

You do realize that different countries that speak different languages competing in Eurovision is completely different than a television show that takes place in a single country, right? If you want to relate this back to Eurovision anyway, think about any one-country national final, for which there has never been a custom to add languages: Melodifestivalen 2022, Ellinikós Telikós 2010, and Festival da Canção 2014, for example. Grk1011 (talk) 13:34, 12 April 2022 (UTC)

Actually, there are several national finals that do include the languages of the songs, such as Benidorm Fest 2022, Vidbir 2022, Eurovision France, c'est vous qui décidez! 2021 and Selecția Națională 2022. I don't know why is there a lot of reluctance for adding the songs' languages. Several reasonable arguments have already been given by others on why they should be added such as standarization with other ESC-based articles and language representation, meanwhile the reasons against have just been based on its "irrelevance", supposed complication and, my favorite, "what does it matter?". If it didn't really matter, this discussion wouldn't have even started and users woudln't have added them in the first place. 2806:1000:8002:C690:5972:F45A:5237:7730 (talk) 00:28, 13 April 2022 (UTC)

Yeah yeah no, not at all. Language in the Eurovision Song Contest is a big thing, and the rules have gone back and forth. We don't have that here at all, and as Grk1011 said earlier, " Most will be English, some will have phrases in other languages, etc, but it's not a critical part of the entry." It is not a critical part of the entry, and the LAST thing we need in any of these articles is more complicated tables full of irrelevant information. If a song is called "Besame Mucho" the reader can assume it's in Spanish--but even if they cannot, what does it matter? If it's ever a matter discussed in secondary (not just mentioned) sources, we can cover that in the text one way or another. And if we're going to be that detailed--well, I hate to be a professionally trained linguist here, but "English" does not exist--"Englishes" do, and "Spanishes", etc. Look at the top of this page, which specifies "American English", which is already an abstraction, being "the set of varieties of the English language native to the United States" (my bold). Drmies (talk) 16:45, 12 April 2022 (UTC)

Just thinking out-loud here but if we had a blurb with acknowledgment of the other languages used this season simaler to the returning artist section on the ESC page. I understand that we don't want to overcomplicate the table and language as big of a factor like in Eurovision; but I do think there should be some sort of acknowledgment. DJddog5 (talk) 17:01, 13 April 2022 (UTC)

References

Fix typo

“be worth” should say “being worth” 199.48.94.113 (talk) 11:34, 21 March 2022 (UTC)

 Done ―Jochem van Hees (talk) 11:38, 21 March 2022 (UTC)

Eurovisionworld Source

I find this source for all the remaining song titles highly dubious for a number of reasons. There is no back up information, you can not find any information about where they got their information from. For example, the name of Arizonas entry seems to be based on the location of a recent instagram posting of the artists.

I recommend to not use this website as a trustworthy source. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Florian100100 (talk • contribs) 12:00, 26 March 2022 (UTC)

Qualifiers 3 Results

Where did these full results come from? The jury ones were obviously broadcast during the show but I can't find where you got these full results from. And why only qualifiers 3? Pretty sure those results aren't real but I don't want to remove them incase they are. Technxcolour (talk) 19:41, 12 April 2022 (UTC)

The overall results were also shown on screen during the next show. As for why we only have such data for heat 3, it's because the production team makes small changes every week and they decided to show the final results that one time.  Andreyyshore 🆃︎ 🅲︎  05:17, 15 April 2022 (UTC)

On the fourth episode, after the public vote qualifiers were announced, the overall results were shown. You can find it at 6:27 mark on the episode. So yes, these are real results. CeolAnGhra (talk) 09:07, 16 April 2022 (UTC)

References

Elimination chart

Someone made an elimination chart regarding the performances per week. Do we still need this? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 103.168.39.6 (talk) 07:53, 3 May 2022 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:American Song Contest/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Reviewer: Onegreatjoke (talk · contribs) 22:05, 9 March 2023 (UTC)

Hello, I've decided to review your nomination after seeing that it was the oldest nomination without a review. Hopefully I don't procrastinate doing this. Comments should begin tomorrow. Onegreatjoke (talk) 22:05, 9 March 2023 (UTC)

Alright, I'm done. Can't find much wrong with this other than what I've listed. Putting on hold. Onegreatjoke (talk) 00:17, 14 March 2023 (UTC)

@Grk1011: in case you missed this. Onegreatjoke (talk) 21:04, 14 March 2023 (UTC)

GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)

1. It is reasonably well written.

   a. (prose, spelling, and grammar):

   b. (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):

2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.

   a. (reference section):

   b. (citations to reliable sources):

   c. (OR):

   d. (copyvio and plagiarism):

3. It is broad in its coverage.

   a. (major aspects):

   b. (focused):

4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.

   Fair representation without bias:

5. It is stable.

   No edit wars, etc.:

6. It is illustrated by images and other media, where possible and appropriate.

   a. (images are tagged and non-free content have non-free use rationales):

   b. (appropriate use with suitable captions):

7. Overall:

   Pass/fail:

(Criteria marked are unassessed)

Comments

Prose

Intro

• "the top three songs determined by a public vote and top two determined by a jury panel" Should it be the top two?

Format

• "The American Song Contest puts artists head-to-head against other representatives in a series of qualiying rounds" Should be Qualifying.
• "Acts could consist of solo artists, duos, bands or a DJ." add comma after bands.
• "The final results were presented in Eurovision style, with each jury member awarding their maximum 12 points then adding in the viewers' points." should it be "and then"?

Background

• "There were plans to develop an US version of Eurovision as early as 2006" should it be "a US version"

Semi-finals

• "Ten performers will advance in the grand final on May 9" should turn in into to to make it past tense .
• "On April 19, NBC has confirmed the first 11 semi-finalists who will compete on the first semi-final" Get rid of has, replace on with in.

That's all for a first check! Onegreatjoke (talk) 21:27, 10 March 2023 (UTC)

Verification

• "In an interview with BBC Breakfast in 2020, Cheryl Baker (member of the winning act in the 1981 Eurovision) opined that the competition will not translate well in the U.S., adding that the country "has got a long way to go to get the kitsch, the cheese, and the fun element" of the contest. Baker also suggested that the U.S. should bring a representative to Eurovision instead." Would like an inline citation for this.
• what makes Wiwibloggs a reliable source?

Other than that sources look good. Onegreatjoke (talk) 00:17, 14 March 2023 (UTC)

Broadness

• Should more information on the rounds be included? Also, is there more information you can add to the cancellation section?

that's all for broadness! Onegreatjoke (talk) 21:27, 10 March 2023 (UTC)

Copyright

Ok, so while there's no cut and dry copyright, it kind of seems like there's some close paraphrasing. for example "A song from the film, "Husavik", was nominated for Best Original Song at the 93rd Academy Awards" is very close to what states it in the cited. So a general rewrite could be nice. Onegreatjoke (talk) 22:55, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

Hi @Onegreatjoke: thank you for the review! I believe I addressed your concerns. Unfortunately there's not much about the cancelation out there. For Wiwibloggs, it is reliable source that just so happens to have blog in its name. The site lists their editorial policies, key staff and their credentials, significance in the field, etc. [1], [2]. Of note is that the editor is also interviewed as part of that BBC interview with Cheryl Baker, so he's also an expert in the subject. Grk1011 (talk) 21:38, 17 March 2023 (UTC)

@Grk1011: At reception it says "The concept of producing a American version of Eurovision was initially met with lukewarm reactions." when it should be "an". If you can fix that then i'll approve. Onegreatjoke (talk) 13:06, 20 March 2023 (UTC)

Hi @Onegreatjoke: done! Grk1011 (talk) 15:52, 20 March 2023 (UTC)

Approving. Onegreatjoke (talk) 20:44, 20 March 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Cielquiparle (talk) 12:32, 7 April 2023 (UTC)

(

• Comment or view
• Article history

)

• ... that there was an American version of the Eurovision Song Contest, but it didn't get renewed for a second season? Source: https://web.archive.org/web/20220321181721/https://www.billboard.com/culture/tv-film/american-song-contest-producers-interview-1235045924/ , https://wiwibloggs.com/2023/02/06/american-song-contest-2023-axed-as-organisers-hope-for-2024-renewal/275313/ , amongst other sources.
  • Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/1937 Fleischer Studios strike
  • Comment: Yes i did review this article for GA.

Improved to Good Article status by Grk1011 (talk). Nominated by Onegreatjoke (talk) at 16:51, 23 October 2022 (UTC). at 19:19, 23 March 2023 (UTC). Post-promotion hook changes for this nom will be logged at Template talk:Did you know nominations/American Song Contest; consider watching this nomination, if it is successful, until the hook appears on the Main Page.

• Article has recently been GA reviewed. Earwig reports a copyvio of this source, but I can see that the copied text is just a list that can't really be rewritten any other way. The main problem I have is that the citations given don't really support the hook, and I'm not sure one of them is GA quality. The Billboard source pre-dates the first season coverage, while the second source only says the series won't be renewed for 2023, but it might be renewed for 2024. So you can't say "it didn't get renewed for a second season" as it may yet do so in the future. And, that brings me onto - what makes wiwibloggs.com a reliable source? Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 16:58, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

I'd suggest changing the wording to "renewed for a 2023 season" to better reflect the refs. I also added an additional ref to the article, though it's in Swedish [3]. Regarding Wiwibloggs, it is reliable source that just so happens to have blog in its name. The site lists their editorial policies, key staff and their credentials, significance in the field, etc. [4], [5] per WP:RS. Grk1011 (talk) 13:35, 26 March 2023 (UTC)

Any thoughts Onegreatjoke and Ritchie333? Grk1011 (talk) 14:50, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

I'll have to AGF on Swedish sources, not being a native speaker, but I think that would work. so that gives us ALT1 ... that there was an American version of the Eurovision Song Contest, but it didn't get renewed for a 2023 season? Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 15:42, 6 April 2023 (UTC)