Talk:American Belgian Draft

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More information, please!

It would be good if there was a bit more information about the breed in Belgium and its history. This feels slightly USA-centric at the moment. Bogbumper (talk) 20:28, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

All we need are sources. See if the International Museum of the Horse web site has anything to add. Their "Breeds of the World" section usually has a good overview of each breed and we use it as a source quite often here. Montanabw^(talk) 03:39, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

SueJorgensen (talk) 23:14, 18 November 2014 (UTC)A second citation for the History section concerning E.F. Dygert bringing the last load of Belgians to America would be the American Belgian Corp. webpage, history section. The Wikipedia E.F. Dygert section has a newspaper clipping of Imported Belgians for sale by Mr Dygert.SueJorgensen (talk) 23:14, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

In the first paragraph describing the names of the breeds and the association webpages the associations listed "The breed associations are the Société Royale Le Cheval de Trait Belge/ Koninklijke Maatschappij het Belgisch Trekpaard and the Eleveurs Wallons du Cheval de Trait Belge/ Vlaamse Fokkers van het Belgisch Trekpaard." All of these names go to the same webpage. One association just translated into several languages. I will double check with my European Brabant contact but I am certain that is the case, when I searched each name on the internet they all went to the same webpage <http://www.trekpaard.be/nl/home>.

On my scratch copy that I am working up how would you want that worded?

The American Associations get no mention Belgian Draft Horse Corp of America and The American Brabant Association at this time there are no other associations that I am aware of on the American Continent. I am including the current American associations in the scratch copy

SueJorgensen (talk) 15:43, 20 November 2014 (UTC)

Recent

The Belgian horse has only been started under saddle 15 years ago. The person who started them competed them in the local rodeo. They placed higher in the events such as: barrels, poles, and others. Some people still only use them for farming. Police are now starting to use them as mounts; due to their laid-back personality and their height. They are more alert and taller, therefore you can see farther around.

Here in the United States we are trying to breed these horses to be taller and have a slightly better build. Although we have the same breed that originated in Belgium, they are much different here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.225.18.124 (talk) 23:47, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

They

When a sentance begins with a pronoun (which in itself is grammatically incorrect) it reflects back to the most previous noun. In this case it would be Brooklyn Supreme which is erroneous and misleading. It is necessary to restate the subject to be clear and concise as to what is being explained. Horses. Plural. And Belgian Horses in general. Not a particular Belgian horse. The edit was not at all odd but in line with rules of grammar and style. Also, the characteristic being discussed was size. Then, without any transitory word or phrase, the topic shifts to pulling capacity. The header "pull' was short sighted and would have been changed. I have removed it.--Buster7 (talk) 04:34, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Also, and is necessary to correct the last sentance in the thread which, if left alone, would be improper English.

The team consisted of one Belgian and one Percheron weighed 3,600 pounds (1,600 kg).[citation needed]

We could say "The team, consisting of one Belgian and one Percheron, weighed 3,600 pounds"....or..."The team of one Belgian and one Percheron weighed 3,600 pounds"....or...."The team consisted of one Belgian and one Percheron and weighed 3,600 pounds. It was incorrect the way it was and required editing.--Buster7 (talk) 04:47, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Brabant and Belgian - Separate Breeds

I would like to point out that the Brabant Horse and the Belgian Draft are not the same breed, they are two separate breeds. The Brabant is actually one of the foundation breeds for the Belgian Draft. They look similar in build but the most noticable difference is color. The Beglian Draft is always a flaxen (sometimes mealy) chestnut, the Brabant can be many different colors including gray black and bay and can sometimes be roan as well. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kiraiko44 (talk • contribs) 05:47, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

We originally had separate articles, but could not find any source material that showed the two breeds as distinct. So, if you have source material that can verify this, please let us know. Montanabw^(talk) 01:01, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

See here for the Flemish breeder's association, which says that the Brabant is a sub-type of the Belgian breed. So far I haven't really come across anything that says they are different enough to warrant separate articles. Dana boomer (talk) 01:14, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

Proposed move

I suggest that this article should be moved, to get rid of those silly brackets. But to what name? I suggest Belgian Draft horse. But I've not listed it at Requested moves because (a) they don't much like capital letters and (b) someone else might have a better idea? Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 18:03, 31 August 2011 (UTC)

In the USA it is just the Belgian horse. I don't know of any other horse breed called a Belgian (?), so I see no need to distinguish "draft" unless there is also a light horse breed too. I'd prefer just Belgian horse. And by the way, before you do a bunch of editing, I know someone else (not me) is sandboxing a rewrite. May want to revisit your edits here in a few weeks to see if the new and improved version better suits what you are up to. That orjust put your concerns here and the person working on the rewrite will see them.

Errm, no, in the USA it is the Belgian Draft Horse (that's the company that registers them, right?), but I don't think that capitalisation would go through. Or we could call it Belgian Draught, like they do in Australia (sounds like a beer). The only other horses I know that have Belgian in the name are the Belgian warmblood and the Belgian riding-pony. The latter is probably irrelevant; but if you are talking to someone about a "Belgian" at a jumping stables, you can bet your socks it isn't a draught horse. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 22:25, 31 August 2011 (UTC)

Read the whole page, they say "Belgian" and "Belgian horse" throughout other than the titles and organization name. There is also a book that says "Belgian Heavy Draught" and some that say "Brabant." My take is keep it as simple as possible. Montanabw^(talk) 21:16, 1 September 2011 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Page moved to Belgian horse. In reading the discussion it appears that this name is the one with the most support. Vegaswikian (talk) 23:12, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

Belgian (horse) → Belgian Draft horse – or, if preferred, Belgian Draft Horse. Google books gives about equal weight to "Belgian Draft horse" -wikipedia -warmblood (349) and "Belgian horse" -wikipedia -warmblood (363), but a further 74 from "Belgian Draught horse" -wikipedia -warmblood -draft should probably be added to the former. More importantly, "Draft" or some similar term is needed to distinguish this breed from the Belgisch Warmbloed Paard, BWP, or Demi-Sang Belge, the Belgian Warmblood, also in some contexts referred to as "Belgian horse", e.g., here. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 15:40, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

Partial support: Support removing (horse), prefer title to be Belgian horse. Not a huge issue, but IMHO, unneeded. There is no significant risk of confusion with the Belgian Warmblood (one 1968 source not persuasive). The word "draft" is not an automatic part of the name, even the US registry alternates its use right on the home page. Montanabw^(talk) 20:56, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

As already noted above, the US registry is the "Belgian Draft Horse Corporation of America". As we both know, parts of a horse-breed name are often dropped once context is established. Thus it would be as normal to talk about "Belgians" in reference to Belgian draught horses once the draught horse context is established as it is to talk about "Belgians" in relation to Belgian warmbloods once the performance sport-horse context is established. The article title, however, needs to be clear and unmistakable in any context. Belgian Draft Horse is both an 'official' American name of the breed and a reasonable translation of "Belgisch Tuigpaard", Belgian harness horse. An alternative would be to split the article into American Belgian and, say, Brabant horse, as per the discussion here. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 11:34, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

The proposed move to the longer name looks fine and as long as the other names are up as redirects (or possibly disambiguation pages given some of the above?).RafikiSykes (talk) 13:52, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

The "Brabant" issue was resolved some time back, based on neutral sources, with the old Brabant artcle being merged into this one. (and the site noted is of dubious reliability, I doubt the Trait du Nord breeders think they have the same horse as the Belgian/Brabant.) The issue of European or American Belgian subgroups can easily be handled by different sections within one solid article, as opposed to making a bunch of stubs (with virtually identical breed history sections) that will just be merged again a few years from now. Other than that, I've said my piece on the renaming issue and thus I would like to see other members of WPEQ besides myself and JLAN weigh in. There are at least 4-5 other people who need to be a part of this discussion if we want to reach a genuine consensus and not just another JLAN v. MTBW discussion that only increases the sound and fury. (Note to all: JLAN and MTBW occasionally have agreed, and when it occurs, it's a beautiful thing). Montanabw^(talk) 02:33, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

Essentially the true Brabant and the Belgian in America are just two subtypes of one breed - kind of like how the Percherons in France and America are essentially the same, just with slightly different physical characteristics. The site you give above appears to be a spin-off group with a shaky grasp on history - the Trait du Nord is a separate French breed with a completely different history, although they probably do have some of the same ancestors and I'm dubious about a few of their others claims.

As to the naming of the Belgian article, I can see it going either direction, although I personally prefer just Belgian horse, because honestly, I've never heard them referred to as the "Belgian Draft Horse" in normal use - they're just Belgians. As to sources, they seem fairly evenly split between whether they're Belgian Drafts, Belgian Draft Horses, Belgian Draught Horses or just Belgians, so I don't think there's really a preference one way or the other in sources. I can easily pull up half a dozen print and web sources that run either way, and even the registries alternate between "Belgian" and "Belgian Draft Horse". So, honestly, like I said, I can see it going either way, and don't really have a strongly held opinion, although I prefer Belgian horse because of common usage. Dana boomer (talk) 14:05, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Updated information please

I'm not sure Radar is currently the world's tallest Belgian.

According to the Guinness Book in 2013, a horse named "Big Jake" currently holds the record as the worlds tallest horse and Big Jake also happens to be a Belgian. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.161.90.35 (talk) 21:31, 28 May 2014 (UTC)

If you have a link to that so we can verify it, that would be an appropriate change to make. But we DO need to see the actual source. Montanabw^(talk) 22:24, 28 May 2014 (UTC)

World record

"Currently, the world's tallest Belgian Draft is Radar, a gelding foaled in 1998 in Iowa. He stands at 19.3½ hands (2.02 metres) at the withers, and weighs over 2,400 pounds (1,100 kg).[3] The world's largest horse was a Belgian Draft named Brooklyn Supreme, who weighed 3,200 lb (1,500 kg) and stood at 19.2 hands (1.98 m).[4][5]"

The current largest Belgian Draft, and largest horse in general, is Big Jake http://simplymarvelous.wordpress.com/2012/09/15/big-jake-tallest-horse-in-the-world/ at just over 20 hands. The largest horse ever according to the article on draft horses: "The largest horse in recorded history was probably a Shire named Mammoth, who was born in 1848. He stood 21.2 hands (86 inches, 218 cm) high, and his peak weight was estimated at 1,500 kilograms (3,300 lb, about 1.47 tons)." 98.127.119.21 (talk) 03:37, 15 June 2014 (UTC)

Under topic Uses: Pulling World Records are broken all of the time then to separate just Belgian records and then to divide again by weight class and how it is measured, dynamo-meter vs sled pull might be more work to keep current than any of us have time for. How about linking to the Wikipedia Horse Pull page so it stays as current as that page. Or the Horse Pullers webpage <http://www.horsepull.com/home2template.htm> The horse pullers page is the one that keeps the best track of current statsSueJorgensen (talk) 15:49, 19 November 2014 (UTC)

Link parking

These were tossed from the external links section, so parking here in case they prove useful later for an article improvement drive. Montanabw^(talk) 04:55, 15 June 2014 (UTC)

• Breed Profile: Belgian Draft Horse by Jayne D. Wilson

• Belgian Draft Horse Corporation of America

• The American Brabant Association

Person who needs help

Moved from my talk page:

Montanabw

I am trying to find some help, I would like to edit the links for the American Brabant Association. The Association has a page and facebook that are being monitored and are not broken links. The problem is that I am a 50 year old, who can successfully bake bread from scratch and spin wool but the small project of trying to fix the link without screwing anyone's stuff up seems as hard as astrophysical calculations. I have allotted two hours a day to trying to read the sandbox and learn. I don't mind doing the work just want to make sure I am doing it right and may need help even figuring it out. Today I found the Equine and Belgian talk page and practiced in the sandbox. Sandbox follows the lesson but the site links, part doesn't look the same. 1st thing how do I get the Belgian Draft Horse links and references to American Brabant website changed. I am in the process of getting the history and breed standards updated on that page since much of the old site was cut and paste as well as un-cited references. Any help or hints would be much appreciated. SueJorgensen (talk) 17:40, 16 June 2014 (UTC)suejorgensen

Also: here is the American Brabant Webpage link: http://www.theamericanbrabantassociation.net/ so the correction is .net, not .com Another link listed as (9) for references goes to an old Facebook page that is lingering unmonitored and should be replaced. I believe the link (9) should be to the Webpage, currently it links threw Rural Heritage's website to the broken Facebook page. I have already contacted Rural Heritage and given them the information that the link needs to be changed and they are working on it. In the future the link from Rural Heritage will show the webpage. In the future as we update and improve the American Brabants Webpage in particular the breed standards and history. I worry that the quotes will not be the same, as I said much of what was previously used in the article was from the webpage but the webpage information needs some work and the wording and focus may not stay the same. My time frame for an approved history for the webpage is Fall 2014 (no way to get our group indoors during the summer most are farming with their horses) Thanks SueJorgensen (talk) 18:50, 16 June 2014 (UTC)susanjorgensen

Always looking for good resources. Keep us updated! Montanabw^(talk) 00:39, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

I think I figured out how to change the Association link on the Parked Links to the good link with the .net.! SueJorgensen (talk) 14:55, 17 June 2014 (UTC) suejorgensen

Possible copyright problem

This article has been revised as part of a large-scale clean-up project of multiple article copyright infringement. (See the investigation subpage) Earlier text must not be restored, unless it can be verified to be free of infringement. For legal reasons, Wikipedia cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or printed material; such additions must be deleted. Contributors may use sources as a source of information, but not as a source of sentences or phrases. Accordingly, the material may be rewritten, but only if it does not infringe on the copyright of the original or plagiarize from that source. Please see our guideline on non-free text for how to properly implement limited quotations of copyrighted text. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 15:48, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

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