Talk:Amalgamated hromada

Latest comment: 3 years ago by RGloucester in topic Merger reverted

Raions and Communities

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With the law creating the new raions of Ukraine which essentially consolidated many raions and councils into new larger raions, does this change the plan for the creation of United territorial communities? Does this make them already obsolete so soon after they were created? --Criticalthinker (talk) 08:13, 24 July 2020 (UTC)Reply

It is suppose to be the other way around.... According to the draft constitutional changes submitted to parliament by President Volodymyr Zelensky United territorial communities are planned to replace raions. But because not all United territorial communities have been formed yet the raions are not yet obsolete. — Yulia Romero • Talk to me! 15:39, 24 July 2020 (UTC)Reply
The new raions - given that they amalgamate many previous raions and local councils - appear that they are being created for most of the same reasons as the united territorial communities were created. The only difference - and I guess it would be a pretty significant one - is that the local councils (district cities, settlement councils, and rural councils) in the new raions would keep their adminisrative independence. It just seems to me that that creating larger raions kind of defeats the purposes of the united territorial communities, which was essentially to create a consolidated local council with the same boundaries as the raion (or very close to it) they existed in to cut down on the duplication of governments.
So now that the raions have gotten larger, the united territorial communities will have to try and increase their size to cover more (or all) of the raions, I'd think. Seems counter-productive is all. Why not just speed up the creation of the united territorial communities to replace the raion councils? --Criticalthinker (talk) 07:33, 25 July 2020 (UTC)Reply

Merger reverted

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I came across this merger following a discussion at WP:P-NUK. I've reverted it, and restored this article. The reason is simple. The merger conflated the 'hromada', which is a longstanding administrative unit in Ukraine consisting of the like of cities and rural councils, with the new united territorial communities, or 'amalgamated hromadas'. These two things are not the same, and the distinction should be maintained. At present, I think the best title for this article is "United territorial communities", given that Google searches return many more results for this name (50,000 hits) than the other potential names. RGloucester 21:24, 25 September 2020 (UTC)Reply

@RGloucester do we really need a separate article for auxiliary units which only existed from 2015 to 2020 during the reform? Before the amendments to the constitution are adopted, new administrative units cannot be created, so in 2020 all amalgamated hromadas were technically abolished and hromadas were just united. When the constitutional amendments will be adopted we do not know, as we do not know what will be the final name of the basic unit of administrative division in Ukraine. Thus I propose to move this article to "Administrative-territorial reform in Ukraine" or even better to "communal reorganisation in Ukraine", which itself is one of the main part of general Decentralisation in Ukraine - a series of reforms to give additional power and resources to local authorities. Delasse (talk) 11:57, 20 May 2021 (UTC)Reply
I don't necessarily oppose your proposal, but I honestly feel like we should wait until it is clear what is going to happen before merging all of these articles together. RGloucester 14:08, 20 May 2021 (UTC)Reply

2 lists in 2 different Wikipedia articles listing the same thing?

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Currently in this Wikipedia article there is a list of communities while there is a main article List of united territorial communities of Ukraine.... Are they not both listing the same thing? Or is the list in this Wikipedia article only for the territorial communities that have (or are likely to get soon) a English Wikipedia article? Surly such list should be avoided.... Per Wikipedia:Content forking it is probably better to make the Wikipedia article List of united territorial communities of Ukraine a Wikipedia:Redirect-page to the list on this Wikipedia page. — Yulia Romero • Talk to me! 18:03, 1 October 2020 (UTC)Reply

I agree with a merger. RGloucester 17:25, 2 October 2020 (UTC)Reply

Move

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Per the discussion at WP:P-NUK, I've moved this article to amalgamated hromada. RGloucester 17:38, 2 October 2020 (UTC)Reply

Requested move 6 December 2020

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The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Not moved  — Amakuru (talk) 11:49, 12 January 2021 (UTC)Reply



– Common name. In similar case of Poland (and the Ukrainian reform mirrors polish one, that is claimed even by its authors) the similar names are used: Municipalities of Poland and List of municipalities of Poland. Also Hromada should refirect to Municipalities of Ukraine, because it is the main meaning. @RGloucester and Ymblanter: Ookrainer (talk) 16:47, 6 December 2020 (UTC)Reply

I do not have a strong opinion on this (would be fine with me either way), but currently we are using municipalities for what former was the miskradas. I believe all of them are redirects (such as Zolotonosha Municipality), but we should be careful so that it does not make a confusion.--Ymblanter (talk) 16:54, 6 December 2020 (UTC)Reply
Also pinging @Yulia Romero:--Ymblanter (talk) 17:00, 6 December 2020 (UTC)Reply
the main meaning of the term municipality is an administrative division, but the term municipality may also mean the governing or ruling body of a given municipality. --Ookrainer (talk) 17:03, 6 December 2020 (UTC)Reply
Sure, but a distinction still exists between those formed by either new process and the original hromadas pre-reform, regardless of what they are officially called. Again, we follow reliable secondary sources, and reliable sources make this distinction clear. Certainly, no reliable sources support calling these 'municipalities'. RGloucester 15:44, 7 December 2020 (UTC)Reply
      • User:RGloucester yes, the distinction still exists. But do we need to have two separate articles for this? Can we describe this (quite tiny) distinction between the new hromadas post-reform and the original hromadas pre-reform in one article? Then there is no problem with the name, we can simple use the name 'hromada'. And there are plenty of reliable sources calling them 'hromada's. --Ookrainer (talk) 15:57, 7 December 2020 (UTC)Reply
No, because if we name the article 'hromadas', it must also include urban-type settlements, towns, villages, etc., and these are fundamentally different from what the new amalgamated hromadas, which also have greater powers (and are intended to replace the raions). RGloucester 02:23, 8 December 2020 (UTC)Reply
User:RGloucester, you are not fully right. Cities, urban-type settlements, villages are types of settlements in Ukraine. Hromadas are municipalities. Before the reform also some 'hromadas' (i. e. municipalities) included several settlements. Now after the reform (which was actually just a communal municipal reorganisation) most of the hromadas include several settlements (but for example Uzhhorod city hromada includes only city Uzhhorod) Ookrainer (talk) 17:00, 9 December 2020 (UTC)Reply
This is not correct. The constitution of Ukraine specifies that broad term 'hromadas' included all forms of settlement administrations. RGloucester 19:15, 9 December 2020 (UTC)Reply

Also pinging @DDima:, since he is "the main Ukraine-related geographical editors from way back in the days"  Yulia Romero • Talk to me! 18:43, 9 December 2020 (UTC)Reply


The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.