Talk:Alpha and beta male/Archive 1

Archive 1

Cernovich

The term "beta male" has been used in thousands of articles by journalists. It seems undue weight to give a very unusual person like Cernovich as an example to use the term. Examples are fine, but they should be somewhat representive --Distelfinck (talk) 22:03, 18 April 2017 (UTC)

New York Times using the term in 2008 --Distelfinck (talk) 22:20, 18 April 2017 (UTC)

• It would be much, much better to limited examples to reliable, independent sources which are specifically talking about the term, not uses of the term in unrelated articles. If these sources don't exist, this might be WP:NOTDICTIONARY territory. Grayfell (talk) 22:22, 18 April 2017 (UTC)

@Grayfell: these sources clearly exist especially the nymag I added which describes the evolution of the term. Valoem ^{talk contrib} 22:36, 18 April 2017 (UTC)

Pings only work if they are added at the same time as a signature, but I'm watching the page, so you don't have to bother.

I still think that any source not specifically about the term should be handled with a light touch, or just left out, but I can see that some examples would be useful. Examples have a tendency to become cherry-picking if they are not supported by reliable sources as examples, which isn't common. Cernovich isn't an expert in ethology, and he's not an expert in the made-up PUA use of the term, either (is anybody?) so citing him as an example is imparting special significance to his usage of a very loosely defined term. I see why that's tempting, but I don't quite trust it to be neutral.

Also, since the NYMag source (which is a good inclusion) and others are about alpha/beta as a larger pseudo-scientific pop-cultural thing, rather than this specific term or Alpha (ethology), what about altering the article to be about both? Just a thought. Grayfell (talk) 23:22, 18 April 2017 (UTC)

No, this term is slang and has nothing to do with the ethological term. Valoem ^{talk contrib} 23:36, 18 April 2017 (UTC)

Attack Page?

This is little more than attack page at this point. It needs a major redesign to really represent the meaning of the slang over the years versus the group of people that got their feelings particularly hurt a year ago. 2603:3027:F03:DD00:F483:ECBB:793C:D2F1 (talk) 07:57, 6 November 2017 (UTC)

Requested move 2 March 2018

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: no consensus to move the page at this time; I have altered the redirect to reflect discussion here, but if an editor has an objection to that change, I suggest that it be taken directly to Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion. Dekimasuよ! 05:17, 14 March 2018 (UTC)

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Beta male (slang) → Beta male – There is not much need for the disambiguation considering no other page shares this title. The hatnote can direct people to the animal version of the term. _{ZXCVBNM (TALK)} 12:34, 2 March 2018 (UTC)--Relisting. —usernamekiran(talk) 12:06, 9 March 2018 (UTC)

• Oppose and change the redirect to Alpha (ethology). The term is commonly used as referring to beta animals, especially primates, and is not limited to humans which this good faith move request would do. Randy Kryn (talk) 16:36, 2 March 2018 (UTC)

• The term only came into vogue when it was used to describe humans, however. It was previously a rarely used scientific term. Redirecting it to the animal usage would be understating why the term is popular._{ZXCVBNM (TALK)} 18:56, 2 March 2018 (UTC)

• Alpha male directs to Alpha (ethology) so Beta male could easily be directed there as well. The "History" section of this page, Beta male (slang), gives its long association to all animals, and how the word began to become associated with humans. I don't personally know the history, but that section seems to uphold the oppose comment (at least how I'm understanding it unless my viewpoint of the term, the article's history section, and the precedent of the redirect of its associated term, Alpha male, is in error). Randy Kryn (talk) 21:37, 2 March 2018 (UTC)
• And it looks like the redirect for Beta male was a stable redirect to Alpha (ethology) or its preceding title, Alpha (biology), from its creation in 2007 until April of last year when it was moved to the slang page (I believe without discussion, although I didn't research it). So putting it back to the stable redirect seems doable and possibly appropriate. Randy Kryn (talk) 22:14, 2 March 2018 (UTC)

• Support - WP:COMMONNAME as this is now a slang term very disconnected from the discredited ethology usage. -- Netoholic @ 09:55, 3 March 2018 (UTC)

• The term seems to hold up for great apes, and the Guardian article used as a source of a controversy says that the same individual may assume alpha-beta roles depending on context, not that the terms are discredited. The source of the controversy mention of wolves is an author involved in the wolf pack alpha-beta designation later discovering that he misidentified wolf packs in nature as unrelated individuals, when in fact they are usually a family unit. That has nothing to do with unrelated wolves or dogs, who, when they meet or mingle with each other, create alpha-beta relationships quickly (either that or lots of barking and tugging on leases). The slang use relates directly to the ethology use, not the other-way around. The ethology usage has been used for a long time while the slang use for human name-calling came about in the mid-1990s. The existing descriptor on this page is appropriate, but the base term 'Beta male' should redirect, as it stably did until April 2017, to the Alpha (ethology) page, where 'Alpha male' has been a stable redirect since 2004. Randy Kryn (talk) 12:07, 3 March 2018 (UTC)

• Oppose and change beta male redirect per Randy Kryn. The ethology use - even if discredited - is the source of, and more influential than, a glorified Internet meme. SnowFire (talk) 20:19, 5 March 2018 (UTC)
  • Dismissing it as a "glorified internet meme" makes no sense when the term arose prior to internet memes being invented. In fact, it was created by the media and appeared in a large number of publications._{ZXCVBNM (TALK)} 02:01, 6 March 2018 (UTC)
    • Correct... as the ethology version. This PARTICULAR article focuses on the term as "Internet insult for males who don't agree with me" rather than the more generic "follower rather than leader" meaning. Perhaps you're proposing a scope change of this article? SnowFire (talk) 19:19, 6 March 2018 (UTC)
      • I'm not sure where you got that impression, the term was around long before it became an Internet insult. For example, here is an article from 1999 the article cites where it was used in a non Internet context._{ZXCVBNM (TALK)} 20:59, 6 March 2018 (UTC)
        • I think we're talking past each other? Of course the term was used, but that's again rooted in the ethology term - Wolf has argued internally that Gore is a 'beta male' who needs to take on the 'alpha male' in the Oval Office before the public will see him as the top dog. That's a direct use of the ethology meaning, no metaphor or anything needed. It's also basically just background for this article. To rephrase: if you aren't, *I* am proposing a scope change of the article to more explicitly exclude stuff like that which can go into Alpha (ethology), and refocus this article to be closer to its title - that of an insult that has little to do with animal organization. SnowFire (talk) 21:24, 6 March 2018 (UTC)
          • • Calling someone "a beta male" is not referring to the ethology meaning at all. I don't think that quote was implying that there are literally alpha and beta males in the human social hierarchy, just that he is "not as manly" and the person in the Oval Office is "more manly", which is the same definition as the insult/slang._{ZXCVBNM (TALK)} 22:26, 6 March 2018 (UTC)
              • Yes, the quote implied correctly that there are alpha and beta males in the human social hierarchy. And yes, calling someone a beta male refers directly to the ethology meaning. Humans are apes, and ape society has alpha and beta males everywhere you look (ever been to a pub? if not, I'll gladly hoist a glass or two with you). Maybe they change roles from time to time. Randy Kryn (talk) 23:26, 6 March 2018 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

1990s? Really?

The claim that the terms "alpha" and "beta male" were barely used before the 1990s seems far-fetched and at best assumption-based OR to me.

Here, for example, is what NYMag said about the term three years ago:

Google Scholar can only provide a rough estimate, of course, but it returns 11 research mentions of “alpha male” between 1900 and 1950, and about 2,220 for the period between 1950 and 2000. Google Books shows a similar trend: The term barely existed in books until 1960 — though in Aldous Huxley’s Brave New World, first published in 1932, human beings were assigned, from fetushood on, to a caste ranging from alpha to epsilon — and since then has been on a mostly consistent upswing.

(http://nymag.com/betamale/2016/05/the-rise-of-the-alpha-beta-male.html)

You have to have a Google login these days to check those numbers but it seems very clear that the inflection point was around 1950 or 1960.

Can some alpha male who does have a login do the check on this? Tirailleur (talk) 13:56, 26 September 2019 (UTC)

Sigma and Omega?

Should these terms be included in the article? 2601:741:8000:1A80:A8CE:7D14:44:84BA (talk) 14:02, 27 June 2021 (UTC)

Depends, have they been described in reliable sources? GorillaWarfare (she/her • talk) 18:28, 27 June 2021 (UTC)

"Sigma male" listed at Redirects for discussion

A discussion is taking place to address the redirect Sigma male. The discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2021 November 29#Sigma male until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. Jay (talk) 03:19, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

The consensus was that Sigma male should redirect here and be added to this article. I've made a stab at it with two citations, but there is more material out there.Aervanath (talk) 21:24, 19 December 2021 (UTC)

I agree with you on some points but not this one....

how would you call father's rights a misogyny movement?? It is about men who get their money and their kids taken by women and destroy their their happy lifes, how is it considered as misogyny?? or you're just hating on men I wish a respond as soon as possible Imadfg (talk) 15:20, 13 July 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 3 March 2023

HISTORY : Aldous Huxley's novel 'Brave New World', published in 1932, describes a society led by alpha males which was constructed around the eugenic creation of alpha males and females, as well as those engineered as beta, gamma, delta and epsilon individuals. 109.190.253.14 (talk) 20:08, 3 March 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. M.Bitton (talk) 23:54, 3 March 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 15 March 2023

2600:8803:AF19:A000:90C1:6398:7A37:8A9D (talk) 14:03, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

I would submit that "the pseudo-mythical term "alpha male" is actually just an 80's euphemism for a megalomaniacal asshole." should be added to the definition listings.

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 14:13, 15 March 2023 (UTC)