Talk:Alma Vessells John

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Alma Vessells John/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Mujinga (talk · contribs) 03:57, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

Initial comments

Hi SusunW, I'll take this on for review as part of the Wikipedia:WikiProject Good articles/GAN Backlog Drives/October 2020. I'll hope to add the review within the next 24 hours. Mujinga (talk) 03:57, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

Template

Good Article review progress box Criteria: 1a. prose () 1b. MoS () 2a. ref layout () 2b. cites WP:RS () 2c. no WP:OR () 2d. no WP:CV () 3a. broadness () 3b. focus () 4. neutral () 5. stable () 6a. free or tagged images () 6b. pics relevant () Note: this represents where the article stands relative to the Good Article criteria. Criteria marked are unassessed

Review

Lead

• A nice big lead! I'll come back to this and the infobox last. Mujinga (talk) 10:43, 3 October 2020 (UTC)
• "Her post at both organizations was to" - "post" reads strangely to me here, is that just a US/Br Eng thing?

I see nothing wrong with post, but changed it to position  Done SusunW (talk) 14:33, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

• "radio producer" - would this better something like "radio and television personality"? In any case, her TV work can be mentioned too

 Done SusunW (talk) 14:33, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

• "newspaper columnist" - there isn't anything about this in the body text, except writing a newsletter

I actually had a couple more articles pulled up at Old Fulton to add but the site went off line and I could no longer access them. Frustrating, but after waiting a week for the site to come back, I gave up. Changed the verbiage to read newsletter writer. SusunW (talk) 14:33, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

Infobox

• As above, her TV work can also be mentioned in occupation

 Done SusunW (talk) 14:34, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

Early life and education

• "a family of nine siblings, who" - since the subject is "family" which would be better than who

 Done SusunW (talk) 14:37, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

• "They read" - source says the dad made them all read it, so maybe "the family" is better than "they", since that suggested to me it was her and her dad reading it

 Done SusunW (talk) 14:37, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

• routes-mag says she studied at New York University as well as Harlem covered later onMujinga (talk) 11:27, 3 October 2020 (UTC)
• for note 2, maybe just easier to say "whether her name is spelled Vessells or Vessels" with the refs on each version

 Done SusunW (talk) 14:37, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

Nursing (1929–1951)

• Repetition of "Harlem Hospital", it's mentioned in first and second sentence

 Done Changed to them. SusunW (talk) 14:43, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

• "As an assistant to Estelle Massey Riddle, John and Riddle were tasked" reads weird since Riddle is mentioned twice

Changed to they SusunW (talk) 14:43, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

Still reading weird to me, I'd suggest something like "Working with Estelle Massey Riddle, she helped to eliminate" or "As an assistant to Estelle Massey Riddle, she was tasked with helping to eliminate" Mujinga (talk) 09:53, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

 Done SusunW (talk) 13:31, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

• "basic education, to complete nursing training," maybe better as "basic education in order to complete nursing training,"

 Done SusunW (talk) 14:43, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

• "To reach broader audiences" could start a new paragraph

 Done SusunW (talk) 14:43, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

• "she wrote a script Brown Women in White for production on WNBC" - Just randomly saw this on http://archives.nypl.org/uploads/collection/generated_finding_aids/scm20710.pdf: "She wrote the script for the program, Brown Women in White, which was aired on sixty-nine stations." - 69 stations seems a lot, maybe worth adding. And if this is what made her name, maybe it's worth another sentence or too. Oh now I see the radio and television section starts with The Homemaker's Club in 1952 so maybe i am jumping the gun here.

I added a sentence, who, what, where ;) (the 69 stations was in several sources, but I had no idea that was a large number).  Done SusunW (talk) 15:04, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

• "only 14 still barred African-American students" and "though there were still gaps in opportunity and pay nationwide" not in source

Reworked first part. 2nd part definitely in the source "There still are 'wage differentials' in the North as well as the South, and Negroes still have 'insufficient opportunity' to train as nurses".  Done SusunW (talk) 15:04, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

thanks for clarification  Done Mujinga (talk) 09:55, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

Radio and television (1952–1978)

• What's Right with Teenagers sounds great!

I know, right? SusunW (talk) 15:15, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

• "wide variety of guests" - the MLK link says Rosa Parks so she could be added, the other ref I cannot check, see below

Added Parks. Question, do you think it is overlink? Should I link all of them, or just the ones people probably don't know? And on the references, yes, I know. Old Fulton went down. There were several hits in my search of that source, specifically for the New York Amsterdam News, which I cannot find digitized anywhere else, that I couldn't access after the site went down. Soooo frustrating. SusunW (talk) 15:15, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

I'm in favour of linking them all, and will reply below about Fulton Mujinga (talk) 09:55, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

Later career (1977–1986)

• Nothing to add

Death and legacy

• "She was remembered for her contributions in the fight for civil rights, nursing, and as a pioneer radio personality" - I don't doubt this, but the current source doesn't really back the claims

Added a cite  Done SusunW (talk) 15:27, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

Images

• The infobox image is stunning!

I know right? So lucky that the people at the Detroit library were so helpful about verifying no copyright info on the photo and finding that it was published. I was stoked! SusunW (talk) 15:34, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

• All images public domain, therefore fine
• Only the infobox image has an "alt=" so these could be added for the others

 Done SusunW (talk) 15:34, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

References

• Overall very impressive and easy to check, thank you
• This one is not working for me right now - "Sister Alma John, Versatile Lady" (PDF). New York Amsterdam News. New York, New York. April 20, 1974. p. D-12. Retrieved September 24, 2020. - seems like fultonhistory.com is down

See above comments, site went down on September 25th and have not been able to access it since. (I actually checked with other editors to see if I was blocked because I was in Mexico, but was told by editors in the US and Europe that they cannot access it either, so I assume it is down). SusunW (talk) 15:37, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

Hold

I'm putting this on hold and I'm pretty sure we can work through the mostly minor issues. My main concern right now would to have something about her newspaper writings and to check on that reference Mujinga (talk) 12:32, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

Would that I could Mujinga, as I said earlier, there were more clippings from New York Amsterdam News, but they are now inaccessible. There are clues about journalist activity, but I didn't think enough to cover it properly. See Clark, p 1 under "columns" . That certainly looks like newspaper work but I was unsure without having more detail. Adamczyk lists a whole bibliography of sources about her that I cannot find anywhere. Part of that is her era, but a bigger part of that is that she was 1) a woman and 2) African-American. Women's and ethnic history was not written until the 1970s, and when scholars began focusing on these areas, they began with women shown in artworks through the ages and suffragists and male leaders. Women civil rights and women's rights activists of the 1950s and 1960s were mostly still living at that time and scholarly work on them is just now beginning. Most black newspapers have not been widely digitized, the digitization of the Associated Negro Press is behind a paywall in a special collection not accessible with a regular subscription to ProQuest, and many black archives are private. Makes writing difficult. Not impossible, but hard. SusunW (talk) 15:50, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

Thank you so much for reviewing the article. Advise if more work is needed. SusunW (talk) 15:50, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

@SusunW: Thanks for the fast answer and the responses. Oh right I see about Fulton, that's a shame. Let's hope it comes back! I'm more than happy to AGF on the source for now, since your referencing is topnotch. You probably know this trick already but I try to archive sources on wayback by clicking the "View history" tab then "Fix dead links" tab, which takes me to an IAbot page. I tick the "Add archives to all non-dead references (Optional)" box then click "Analyze" and it will produce wayback machine arhcive links. I think this is done by a bot eventually as well, but I like to do it at the end of a session. Just tried it for this article and got no modifications. My only remaining issue is on the Riddle sentence, it still reads funny to me. When that's resolved this will be a good article in my opinion. Mujinga (talk) 10:02, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

Mujinga changed the sentence at Riddle. I had no idea you could archive a whole article's links. I save them individually as I go. Especially since not everything works with wayback and for some you must use archive.today. I'll try your trick. Thanks for teaching me. On the New York Amsterdam News I was formatting the ref and hadn't saved it yet, when I pulled up wayback to save it, it said the site wasn't available on the live web. That was my first clue something was wrong. I could see the open link on my browser, but couldn't open any others nor search, so I wrote everything I could from the source and hoped that it'd be back the following day. But not. Anyway, thank you so much for your help. Really appreciate it. SusunW (talk) 13:39, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

Great, congrats on another good article. Please do keep 'em coming! On my tip, actually it might not work so well with sfn referencing style, but anyway at least you know about it now. All the best, Mujinga (talk) 14:16, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

Mujinga Old Fulton is back. Haven't found anything more about writing, but was able to save the link we couldn't access in wayback, if you want to check it. SusunW (talk) 16:59, 13 October 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for the headsup! It seems to be down again but I was able to see the link on wayback machine and added the archived url tto the citation Mujinga (talk) 17:08, 14 October 2020 (UTC)

Oh good grief, but at least it is now saved in wayback. SusunW (talk) 18:03, 14 October 2020 (UTC)

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Cwmhiraeth (talk) 06:09, 4 November 2020 (UTC)

(

• Comment or view
• Article history

)

Alma Vessells John in 1963

• ... that while working to desegregate nursing in the US, Alma Vessells John (pictured) wrote a radio script that sparked a 25-year career in radio and television? Source: "When Mrs. Alma Vessells John because executive secretary of the NACGN in the fall of 1946, she continued the effort to remove barriers in the appointment and upgrading of Negro nurses". (No Time for Prejudice); "In 1950, when called upon by radio station WNBC to tell the story of the Negro nurse in a half hour program, Mrs. John submitted a draft entitled 'Brown Women in White'". ("Pioneering Is Old Story For Alma Vessells John); "25 years in broadcasting" (The Kaiser index to Black resources, 1948-1986)
  • ALT1: ... that pioneering radio and television producer Alma Vessells John (pictured) interviewed Rosa Parks, Ella Fitzgerald, and other prominent Black women on her 1970s television show Black Pride? Source: "She was a pioneer in radio and television broadcasting" (Congressional Record); "... hosted a half-hour television program, Black Pride. John interviewed guests such as Rosa Parks and Ella Fitzgerald..." (The Papers of Martin Luther King, Jr.) Note: Other women are mentioned in the fultonhistory.com source, which is currently down.

• Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/St. Jacobi, Werther

Improved to Good Article status by SusunW (talk). Nominated by Yoninah (talk) at 21:07, 7 October 2020 (UTC).

• Struck the word "pioneering" as it could be seen as subjective/POV—esp if the source for this is Congressional Record, since that is just Charles Rangel's opinion. (t · c) buidhe 13:47, 9 October 2020 (UTC)

  Interesting life, substantial GA, on fine sources, subscription sources accepted AGF, no copyvio obvious. The image is licensed and almost a must, - half the message. I prefer the ALT hook, but think it could get better. We could do without saying anything about radio and television, because television show makes it redundant, - instead we could say something about her nursing background, which is unusual for a TV person. We could also drop the "and other prominent black women" bit, because it's redundant to (the more concise) Black Pride. If you disagree I can approve ALT1. - I tried taking pics of St. Jacobi last Sunday but they are not good enough for the Main page, Yoninah. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:45, 9 October 2020 (UTC)

(As for pioneering, multiple sources call her that, but it is not worth arguing about.) I get that more people will be interested in her radio/TV work, but historically the significance of her entire career is that she worked in civil rights trying to improve the opportunities and perceptions of Black people in both fields. There were many nurses and many radio and television personalities, but not that many who were also involved in the civil rights struggle. Many people associate desegregation/integration solely with schools, so the fact that she was involved in desegregating nursing puts into perspective the wider ramifications of "separate but [un]equal". Perhaps combing the two hooks somewhat meets your idea, Gerda Arendt?:

• ALT2: ... that after working to desegregate nursing in the US, Alma John (pictured) produced a 1970s television show Black Pride, interviewing prominent Black women like Rosa Parks and Ella Fitzgerald?

Perhaps Yoninah has a better idea of how to reword it? SusunW (talk) 15:04, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

Thank you, better. My take would be:

ALT2a: ... that Alma John (pictured), after working to desegregate nursing in the U.S., produced a 1970s television show Black Pride, interviewing Rosa Parks and Ella Fitzgerald? We don't have to say that Fitzgerald is a prominent Black woman, imho (and same for "pioneering", btw), and we better have the link to the subject first.

approving, but open to further suggestions. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:12, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

• Gerda, your version sounds like those were the only two women she interviewed. I prefer SusunW's ALT2. Yoninah (talk) 16:00, 11 October 2020 (UTC)
  • Pinging @Gerda Arendt: Yoninah (talk) 14:46, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

    It is approved, only: it will lead to clicks on Desegregation, and repeats Black. Your call. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:59, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

    • @Gerda Arendt: well, ALT2 links desegregate and also mentions Black. As I said, ALT2a seems to be limiting her guests to two Black women, while ALT2 suggests there were many more. Yoninah (talk) 15:14, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

      I said: your call, no? (That's exactly what I said. It mentions desegregate before the main subject, and has "Black" twice.) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:18, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

• ALT2b: ... that after working to desegregate nursing in the US, Alma John (pictured) produced the 1970s television show Black Pride, interviewing prominent figures like Rosa Parks and Ella Fitzgerald? Yoninah (talk) 15:44, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

  fine by me, thank you --Gerda Arendt (talk) 18:31, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

• Thank you. Yoninah (talk) 19:16, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

TV shows

I find it rather interesting that none of the TV shows listed here that she worked in, created, wrote for, ran, etc. have their own entries either here at Wikipedia or at IMDb.

One would think that if those shows were that important, there'd be more about them.

Or am I missing something. 2600:8800:785:2A00:C23F:D5FF:FEC4:D51D (talk) 22:18, 8 November 2020 (UTC)

It is indicative of the segregated era in which she lived most of her life. Women's and black history topics did not evolve as topics of academic study until after 1970, so it seems perfectly logical to me that works they created may not have been studied either. Limited access to the Associated Negro Press is also an issue for these topics as mainstream US newspapers rarely covered black events. SusunW (talk) 22:36, 8 November 2020 (UTC)