Talk:Alleged military use of al-Shifa hospital

New Article

Information about these allegations is being added to Al-Shifa hospital and to Al-Shifa Hospital siege in a haphazard way so create an article devoted in more detail to them which those articles can refer to in summary. Selfstudier (talk) 14:42, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

I think it would be better to merge this article back to either of the above articles.VR _talk 21:01, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

Why? Selfstudier (talk) 22:35, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

POV

The article as it currently stands is a POV mess of cherry picked quotes presenting a narrow POV viewpoint. I’ve removed the irrelevant section about Israel bringing aid that was presented to synthesize the idea that this was somehow correlated with the discovery of weapons. Drsmoo (talk) 17:51, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

Atm, it's mostly a copy paste of material from Al-Shifa Hospital siege so it mostly has consensus. Selfstudier (talk) 17:53, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

The siege article is much better Drsmoo (talk) 17:58, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

It's a copy of it, so how can that be? Look at the article creation, it's a straight copy paste of the section "Alleged military use".Selfstudier (talk) 18:03, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

So please specify here the reasons for the tag. Selfstudier (talk) 17:55, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

See above, cherry picked quotes presented to push a POV rather than reflect reliable sourcing. Drsmoo (talk) 17:57, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

Note the word "specify", assertions won't do. Selfstudier (talk) 17:59, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

What and where did Israel build?

Maybe we can start with Newsweek and see where that might lead. "The bunker, reportedly constructed decades ago, includes a secure underground operating room and tunnel network. Reports by left-wing Israeli newspaper Haaretz and other outlets have specifically mentioned the hospital's Building No. 2, which it says was built as an add-on in the mid-1980s and contains a large cement basement initially intended for laundry and administrative tasks. The excavation of the underground concrete floor was corroborated by online English-language Israeli publication Ynetnews." and helpful maps/layout here showing the discovered locations, "lie underneath the northeastern part of the Al-Shifa compound. The underground network begins under the southeastern part of the Qatari building, which houses the internal medicine wards. The tunnel is blocked from the side leading to the Shifa – Ezz Aldine Al-Qassam Street." Selfstudier (talk) 18:51, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

Why start with a source presenting a minority opinion? Most sources correctly state that Israel built an underground operating area which was expanded, tunneled out and developed by Hamas for military use. These sources will be provided later. Drsmoo (talk) 19:13, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

If it is a minority opinion, then there will be other sources describing what Israel built that do not mention those tunnels. I look forward to seeing those and i will of course go looking myself. Selfstudier (talk) 19:20, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/11/23/idf-gaza-hospital-tunnels-director-arrested/

Ehud Barak, Israel’s former prime minister, told CNN earlier this week that some of the underground space underneath Al-Shifa was built by Israeli engineers. Israeli officials said that Hamas dug several further floors and added more tunnels to the basement areas originally built in the 1980s.

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-11-13/ty-article-magazine/.premium/al-shifa-hospital-israels-biggest-moral-challenge-in-the-gaza-war/0000018b-c45b-db2f-a7cb-dedba4900000

During a cabinet meeting a week ago, Shin Bet chief Yuval Diskin said senior Hamas officials found refuge in the hospital basement because they know Israel would not target it, due to the patients in the upper floors. Palestinian sources told Haaretz that not all the senior Hamas leaders are hiding in one place.

Rather, they have spread out, and some are constantly changing locations. Some of the bunkers they are using were linked by tunnels Hamas built in recent years.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/12/world/middleeast/gaza-hospitals-shifa.html

A large portion of the buildings that now make up the hospital were built by Israel when it ruled Gaza. It pulled out of the strip in 2005, opening a window for Hamas to take control, and by 2007 the militants had begun building the command center under Al Shifa, the Israeli officials said.

At first, Hamas simply dug out areas off the original basements of Al Shifa’s buildings, later going deeper and adding floors and connecting it to the vast network of reinforced tunnels it was building across Gaza, the officials said. They said it has since grown into one of the hubs of a vast tunnel system that crisscrosses Gaza. Drsmoo (talk) 01:11, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

Telegraph says "added more tunnels to the basement areas originally built in the 1980s" meaning there were some already there. This seems logical, why would you build underground areas without connections? What we need are historical sources to clear this up. Selfstudier (talk) 11:56, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

Copy from main hospital article:

"During a renovation in the 1990s a large basement was added, which the IDF later said was appropriated by Hamas and used to store weapons.According to former Israeli PM Ehud Barak in an interview with CNN, the tunnels were built in the 1980s by Israel as part of the hospital's construction.In particular, in 1983, the Israelis built "a secure underground operating room and tunnel network" beneath Building 2 of the hospital. According to Israeli officials, Hamas subsequently dug out the original basement, later adding new floors and connecting it as a hub within their existing tunnel system."

So this is in the main article as of now and we should go from there to see how to make the History section in this article. Selfstudier (talk) 14:54, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

We have The Times "One reason that the Israelis have good reason to suspect that there is an underground bunker is that they themselves built a secure operating room with some tunnels under the hospital in 1983 when they occupied the territory." without mentioning the Tablet article, and The Conversation says "There were also claims published several days before the tunnels were reportedly uncovered referencing a 2014 article [Tablet] which asserted that the complex had been built in 1983 when Israel was in control of Gaza. Again, this claim has not been investigated. Forensic investigation of the site and all records pertaining to construction work there will be of huge importance." and several other sources have cited Tablet. These days, Tablet is a bit of a ropey source, idk whether it was any good in 2014. Selfstudier (talk) 16:04, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

Reports indicate the IDF saying they have blown up/destroyed the tunnels and shafts, ah well, no command center then (and no independent investigation either..). Selfstudier (talk) 19:13, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

References

Days before

the New York tines published:

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/01/02/us/politics/gaza-hospital-hamas.html ij addition, In the MRI building of Shifa Hospital, the forces found many weapons, as well as in the Qatari building of the hospital. According to the IDF, Hamas gave instructions in the three weeks leading up to the maneuver to seal the tunnel openings and hide weapons under the auspices of 30,000 Gazans deployed in the hospital complex.

https://www.ynet.co.il/news/article/syhh00ov4a 2.55.14.201 (talk) 06:07, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 16 January 2024

In the background section, the text "siege of Gaza" links to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Gaza . It should instead link to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Gaza_City as the first link is an event that happened over 2,000 years ago. 2A02:C7C:3904:900:1C40:65E1:9CD3:5DAA (talk) 21:38, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

 Done Cannolis (talk) 05:43, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

Introduction needs to be a summary and have fewer quotes

The intro mainly includes the initial allegations and immediate responses within the same month (November). It needs to made clear that these were initial allegations and authoritative news sources have reversed these claims. These likely do not belong in the summary section, and may not have a place on this page unless there is a section on the history of how the news broke. There should be fewer direct quotes in the intro paragraph; ideally these be moved to appropriate sections. Relspas (talk) 14:49, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

Missing clarifying information / misleading portrayal of quoted material

> Following Israel's release of video evidence on 22 November, multiple news agencies concluded that the evidence did not demonstrate the use by Hamas of a command center, while Haaretz concluded that Hamas did use the hospital for military purposes

I think this should be reworded. All of the sources agreed that it was used by Hamas. This makes it seem like Haaretz gave a different report than the other outlets. A more correct sentence would be:

> Following Israel's release of video evidence on 22 November, multiple news agencies concluded that the evidence did demonstrate the use by Hamas for military purposes, though not as a command center. 83.39.123.86 (talk) 00:58, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

Haaretz report was an outlier in this case, I have removed it with no loss of clarity. Selfstudier (talk) 10:28, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

Lede

The current lede violates WP:NPOV as it omits the presence of Hamas tunnels entirely. I've tried to fix it by adding a summary sentence from another article

“ Multiple news agencies said that the evidence produced by Israel after raiding the hospital did not demonstrate the existence of a Hamas command center, but that it did demonstrate that Hamas used the hospital as cover. ”

Alaexis_¿question? 20:48, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

The point here is not whether there were tunnels or not (they are everywhere in Gaza) but whether a sufficient military usage of them was demonstrated sufficient to overcome the protections, let me look at the sourcing again and I will comment further. Selfstudier (talk) 22:42, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

Whether the strikes were justified is a different matter entirely. Irrespective of that, the presence of tunnels is noteworthy, we have dozens of sources mentioning them prominently. Alaexis_¿question? 10:59, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

Whether the strikes were justified is a different matter entirely That's why we have this article in the first place, "Alleged military use...." I am going through the sources, I haven't forgotten. Btw, your sentence above doesn't mention tunnels? Selfstudier (talk) 11:16, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

I see now where this edit originated. The NYT report of 12 February is what is actually being relied on in the above sentence, the Amnesty and other NYT report from November don't support this at all. The sources have been run together to suggest they are all saying that when they are not. More importantly the NYT is basing its comments on "Classified Israeli intelligence documents, obtained and reviewed by The Times,...." which has not been stated and since the NYT is the only publication making these claims it also needs inline attribution. Doncha just love POV editing.... Selfstudier (talk) 14:17, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

I added a suitable sentence re the later NYT report. Selfstudier (talk) 14:55, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

I also fixed the incorrect material at the parent article by copying from here. Selfstudier (talk) 15:02, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

What was incorrect there? Alaexis_¿question? 20:47, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

I've re-read it and realised that it might have been misleading. While we may have just one source using these specific words we have plenty that have reported on the tunnels likely built by Hamas under the hospital and on the presence of Hamas militants in it. Alaexis_¿question? 21:03, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

You are moving the goal posts, your original edit mentions nothing about tunnels, see my edit at the parent article, this needs to be sorted out here first and then summarized at the parent, not the other way around (that's the second time I have said this). Selfstudier (talk) 22:13, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I've realised that the original wording I took from Al-Shifa article was not entirely accurate and that's why I amended it. Alaexis_¿question? 08:22, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

Let's clarify what happened here:

On 2 October you added the following text to this article:

"Multiple news agencies said that the evidence produced by Israel after raiding the hospital did not demonstrate the existence of a Hamas command center, but that it did demonstrate that Hamas used the hospital as cover.

You copied this material from Al-Shifa Hospital. Earlier, on 7 April, the later NYT reference was added with no mention that it relied on Israeli classified material and the text "However, this did not demonstrate the existence of a Hamas command center." which relied on the earlier NYT and Amnesty articles was altered to read "At the same time, multiple news agencies said that the evidence did not demonstrate the existence of a Hamas command center, but that it did demonstrate that Hamas used the hospital as cover." which is a plain misrepresentation of the situation because the only source that supported this change was the later NYT source.

This misrepresentation is what I fixed here and in the main article and which you once again reintroduced by way of revert. Nor can you introduce a synthesis of what the multiple agencies said, the two matters need to be separated , the "no command center" clearly expressed in multiple sources and then whatever it is you want to put for Hamas use or tunnels or whatever in a separate sentence, properly sourced, without synth and attributed if necessary. Selfstudier (talk) 08:26, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

There is another "later" investigation by WAPO on 21 December that reviews all the various videos and evidence released by Israel. It is mentioned in the article body "In an article published Dec 21 2023, the Washington Post analyzed the publicly released material by Israel, along with satellite imagery and other publicly available material, and concluded that "the evidence presented by the Israeli government falls short of showing that Hamas had been using the hospital as a command and control center". The WP report stated that the rooms which were connected to a tunnel network did not show any immediate evidence of being used by Hamas, and that each of the buildings that the IDF spokesman Daniel Hagari had identified as being "directly involved" in Hamas's military activity did not appear to be connected to any tunnel network, and that there had been no evidence released that showed that a tunnel network could be accessed from inside hospital wards." There is other material as well, none of it favorable to the Israeli case. Selfstudier (talk) 11:16, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

References