Talk:Allahabad Address

POV concerns

For serving a glance to User talk:Faizan, where the discussion was held prior to this thread.

Need a 3rd opinion Hey how are you Faizan? I was hoping that I would be able to get another opinion, just to be sure that I am correct. It has to do with a subject that is related to Pakistan, and furthermore it seems that you are from there. :) Am I allowed to mention the page at all? I am not completely sure whether that would constitute as canvassing. Thanks lilpiglet 09:34, 23 February 2014 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lilpiglet (talk • contribs) Hey Lilpiglet! I am ready to give a 3rd opinion, where is the discussion being held? Faizan 10:48, 23 February 2014 (UTC) Sorry, wrong word of choice; no third opinion as there is no discussion about this. The topic is Allahabad_Address that is being rewritten as "Pakistan Concept". After having read the entire cited source and doing some research I have also found on page 178 to 183, especially page 182 on Tinderbox: The Past and Future of Pakistan By M.J. Akbar[1] to be quite the contrary. There is also a supposedly a 1932 address in which it was written in the paper? (not sure how credible it is) that he did not want a separate country but an autonomous province within India. Going to run as Canada is playing for Gold :) ... Go Canada!!! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lilpiglet (talk • contribs) 12:16, 23 February 2014 (UTC) Further discussion to be held at Talk:Allahabad Address, I am starting a thread there. Faizan 14:08, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

• That is a great point. The wording used in the article in some places is not appropriate and not well supported by reliable sources. For Example, in the article there is written: Here he(Iqbal) presented the idea of a separate homeland for Indian Muslims, which was ultimately realized in the form of Pakistan. Then comes a reference in support of this. Here it is. But I was disappointed to see that even the word Pakistan is not used in the reference. After revising the research of my friend(cited above), I have tried to improve the wording used in the article, especially the above bold line. References in support of the usage of an autonomous territoryhave been provided. Tried to make the text as per the references. Faizan 15:09, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

Thank you, User talk:Faizan for your assistance. Sorry that I was unable to come online when you were changing it because of an internet server issue, due to which I am a lil behind in my school research so will focus on that. I was also correcting 3 other pages on wikipedia so that they have similar claim that a homeland for an independent state was created by Allama Iqbal. However, seeing the way things are, I may put it in the talk pages and someone can edit it in a better format, as opposed to what I was going to do was copy and paste it in and then let someone else come and do the good copy edit. lilpiglet 21:21, 24 February 2014 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lilpiglet (talk • contribs)

"creation of a Muslim India within India"

Dear User:Sajjad Altaf please clearly explain your reason that justifies deletion of the quote "creation of a Muslim India within India" within the introductory paragraph. By doing so, the paragraph now inadvertently claims for a demand for a separate country other than a autonomous Muslim state(s) within a unified greater India. The following will be to highlight this viewpoint that is being lost to somehow a particular narrative that is unfortunately not shared by most events, historians, and secondary sources from that era.

At this point I would like to also call upon prior editors on this page, User:Smsarmad, User:TopGun, User talk:Faizan, User:Yash!, User:Sohailstyle to please take some time out of your precious time and give your WP: NPOV on this subject. Also, while at it, although it was I who wrote the quotations from the address while trying to keep the article WP: NPOV, I am beginning to think that it may be violating one of rules s WP:OR as pointed out by User:Smsarmad. Although Mr. Altaf has has mentioned that there is a concuss on this matter, I am unable to retrieve it ... but nonetheless consensus can change

The reasons to keep the quote "creation of a Muslim India within India" within the introductory paragraph (and to address any other irregularities in other related pages) is to clarify that this address did not ask nor seek for an independant state (ie. nation, country, or homeland) for Muslims of India but rather an autonomy for Muslim dominated regions within India:

"The principle of European democracy cannot be applied to India without recognizing the fact of communal groups. The Muslim demand for the creation of a Muslim India ***within India*** is, therefore, perfectly justified. ::http://www.columbia.edu/itc/mealac/pritchett/00islamlinks/txt_iqbal_1930.html

Furthermore throughout the address, Iqbal mentions (as per the previous source and throughout the article):

"The unity of an Indian nation, therefore, must be sought";

"Thus processing full opportunity of development within the body politic of India, the North-West Indian Muslims will prove the best defenders of India against a foreign invasion;

India demands complete organization and unity of will and purpose in the Muslim community, both in your own interest as a community, and in the interest of India as a whole [...] We have a duty toward India where we are destined to live and die.

"This demand is basically ***different*** from the suggestion put forward by Doctor ***Mohammed Iqbal*** in his Presidential ***address to the All-India Muslim League in 1930***. While he proposed the amalgamation of the provinces into a single state ***forming a unit of the All-India Federation***, we propose that these Provinces should have a separate Federation of their own. There can be no peace and tranquility in the land if we, the Muslims, are duped into a Hindu-dominated Federation where we cannot be the masters of our own destiny and captains of our own souls"

http://www.columbia.edu/itc/mealac/pritchett/00islamlinks/txt_rahmatali_1933.html

https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Now_or_Never;_Are_We_to_Live_or_Perish_Forever%3F

"This was clearly reflected in the fact that figures such as Ameer Ali and Mohammed Nomani argued that it was critical for the Muslim community in India to be addressed as a 'nation' rather than a 'minority' or a 'race' in order for it to be recognized as an important factor in the determination of government policies"

Pg. 129 The Political Philosophy of Muhammad Iqbal: Islam and Nationalism in Late By Iqbal Singh Sevea

http://books.google.ca/books?id=VrItm_F6wncC&pg=PA172&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=determination%20of%20government%20policies&f=false

"While Rahmat Ali had called for a completely separate state, Iqbal in 1930 had spoken of Muslim autonomy within the Indian Federation. The Lahore Resolution passed by the Muslim League in 1940 demanded autonomous "states," consisting of provinces that had a Muslim majority."

Pg. 232 Origins of Muslim Consciousness in India: A World-system Perspective By Syed Nesar Ahmad

http://books.google.ca/books?id=wzm36rEol3sC&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=snippet&q=Iqbal%20Indian%20Federation&f=false

In 1946, Lahore Resolution formed the basis for the decision of Muslim League to struggle for one state for the Muslims.

Taken from Lahore Resolution : Pakistani Historian I H Qureshi, (1965), Struggle for Pakistan, Karachi

"In the early 1930s political separation was not a part of the Muslim agenda, despite the fact that the well-known Muslim poet, Muhammad Iqbal particularly concerned about the plight of the urban Punjabi Muslims, had already articulated at a Muslim League meeting in 1930 at Allahabad "the two-nation theory of irreconcilable Hindu-Muslim difference" (Wolpert, 1984:123). He called this Muslim India the "North West Indian Muslim State."

At the Round Table Conference in 1930, however, Rahmat Ali, a thirty-five-year-old Muslim "student" at Cambridge, began a well-orchestrated movement for "Pakistan." He seemed to have enjoyed the support of certain conservative Britons in his endeavour (Wolpert, 1984:131-132 and Sen, 1955:1433-35). Rahmat Ali was not taken seriously by Muslim League supporters. Even Iqbal's speech seems more an expression of the frustrations of the Punjabi urban professional group, which was weak and left alone by the landlord-dominated politics of the province, than a well-thought-out scheme. The Muslim League in which Jinnah's influence was considerable, did not pay much attention to this proposal To be sure, the Muslim industrial and mercantile interests were not ready to secede.8"

Pgs. 171-172 Origins of Muslim Consciousness in India: A World-system PerspectiveBy Syed Nesar Ahmad

http://books.google.ca/books?id=wzm36rEol3sC&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q=Rahmat%20Ali&f=false

"Thus when Iqbal pleaded for a separate Muslim state in India, he was not asking for the creation of yet another independent territorial unit in the subcontinent. What he emphasized in his address was that the life of Islam as a cultural force in India very largely depended on its centralisation in a specified territory."

although I do not consider this source reliable but taking into perhaps my cultural bias even reading the one source you provided claims that statement http://www.allamaiqbal.com/publications/journals/review/oct83/2.htm

Looking forward to hearing your NPOV although we all have an inherent cultural bias. ;)Thanks lilpiglet 21:26, 10 March 2014 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lilpiglet (talk • contribs)

Ah sorry man! I forgot to have a look at the talk page, and reverted this removal of the term by User Sajjad Altaf already. He unilaterally before had removed the term without prior discussion. Faizan 09:21, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

I could not receive your ping, as you poked my talk instead of userpage above. Faizan 09:24, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

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• Iqbal Allahabad.jpg

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