Talk:All-time Olympic Games medal table/Archive 5

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Archive 5

Germany (GER) and Federal Republic of Germany (FRG)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Both countries are shown as different entities in the large overview table but politically refer to the same country, the "Federal Republic of Germany" (which exists since 23 May 1949 until today). Also, the Federal Republic of Germany is mentioned as "defunct nation" in the article, which is in this context not correct. The "variations" section tries to explain the different names of Germany but at least GER and FRG are one and the same nation and should be treated as such. --2A02:C7D:51E3:A900:AC71:B1C4:F5A7:A979 (talk) 18:50, 11 February 2018 (UTC)

I fully agree, just stumbled over this error. Not combining the results of the Federal Republic of Germany and the German Democratic Republic makes sense, but seperating the Federal Republic of Germany from itself or even calling it a "defunct nation", is completely nonsense. It looks like even the results of really defunct German predecessor states from 1896 to 1952 were counted under "Germany", while separating the results of the Federal Republic of Germany before and after 1990. This is just wrong on so many levels. --Tk2342 (talk) 16:31, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

Would it be possible to amend this in the article accordingly (i.e. combine GER and FRG, which is one and the same nation) given that there seems to be an edit protection? --90.152.126.254 (talk) 11:15, 14 February 2018 (UTC)

Any update on the amendment request or alternative views? Again, the current version is a misrepresentation since GER is the same country as FRG. This not only applies to the Olympics but also to football, where Germany (GER/FRG) has won four World Championships in 1954, 1974, 1990 and 2014 with the country seen as one and the same unit throughout the years. We must change it in the article/table to keep the high Wikipedia standards. --90.220.12.30 (talk) 11:57, 24 February 2018 (UTC)

I agree with you! Why not make a List like in the German version of wikipedia?, already the Page "All-time Olympic Games medal table" in german language shows the reality of rankings.-LuigiPortaro29 (talk) 12:56, 24 February 2018 (UTC)

That would be an option. Although this is more straightforward for Germany than e.g. for the Russian Federation, which includes medals of the USSR in the German-WP table that could also haven been won by athletes e.g. from Estonia or Ukraine before the 1990s. --90.220.12.30 (talk) 14:00, 24 February 2018 (UTC)

I do not agree. Germany and West Germany had the official name of the Federal Republic og Germany, but it is incorrect to combine both from 1968 to 1988 Olympics. Doing that, we should fix all the sports pages. I think the best option, it is to keep the pattern: West Germany, East Germany, Germany and Unified Team of Germany as different teams — Preceding unsigned comment added by Alubini (talk • contribs) 00:44, 26 February 2018 (UTC)

I don't think there is a simple correct and wrong answer. Germany has competed as various political entities and the continuity of different versions is a matter for discussion which will get different opinions. Why does counting the German Empire and the current FRG together make more sense than combining pre- and post-reunification FRG or vice versa? The only unambiguous non-POV approach is to follow the IOC codes used. The medals were awarded to athletes competing under those codes. This approach can also be followed for all countries, with no requirement to make decisions on a case-by-case basis.   Jts1882 | talk  08:42, 26 February 2018 (UTC)

The IOC Codes have changed for a number of countries over time - Great Britain has, for instance, competed as GBR, GRB and GBI. The same goes for Germany, which had, in addition to the codes you mentioned, also competed as ALL/ALE in 1968 (see link). I personally think that we should use a politically correct categorisation as opposed to a labeling categorisation for this specific case. The German Olympic Sports Confederation, which exsists since 1895, has sent athletes competing as FRG and GER to the Olympics through the same organisational entity, the National Olympic Committee of Germany. It is hence less wrong to add up medals won by FRG and GER than separating the current FRG/GER from itself pre-1990 while combining post-1990 GER with the German Empire/Weimar Republic/Third Reich. --94.3.13.10 (talk) 09:55, 28 February 2018 (UTC)

According to the List of IOC country codes article the codes were not used until the 1956 winter games, which explains the instability of names from then until the late 1960s, and kills off my suggestion.   Jts1882 | talk  10:55, 28 February 2018 (UTC)

Look at Olympic.org, they have united all codes used by Great Britain, but not for Germany. --Pelmeen10 (talk) 11:41, 28 February 2018 (UTC)

Interestingly, the data shown on Germany is ambiguous. It mentions that the 1972 Summer Olympics have been held in GER, while only medals before 1952 and after 1992 are highlighted. Next to this, the German Olympic Committee is shown as "Recognised since 1895", while pages about medals won under the FRG, GDR and EUA IOC-Code are missing. That does not make sense at all in my point of view. FIFA may be subject to a lot of citicism these days but at least they get things right with regards to FRG = GER. --94.3.13.10 (talk) 11:56, 28 February 2018 (UTC)

The IOC website shows the medals won by Germany from 1896 to 1952, and then from 1992 to 2018. The medals won by West Germany, East Germany and Unified Team of Germany from 1952 to 1988 are not shown. So I think it is better to keep the pattern. https://www.olympic.org/germany — Preceding unsigned comment added by 187.39.168.48 (talk) 02:42, 2 March 2018 (UTC)

The question is if this segmentation is correct from an encyclopedic point of view. Also, as has been mentioned before, https://www.olympic.org/germany shows that Germany has held the 1972 Summer Olympics. Was Germany, following that logic, host of the Olympics as GER but competed as FRG? Sapere aude. - --DonJusto99 (talk) 07:21, 2 March 2018 (UTC)

So what shall we do regarding Germany (GER) and Federal Republic of Germany (FRG)? --2A02:C7D:51E3:A900:3893:8385:2A2F:5BCC (talk) 19:47, 4 March 2018 (UTC)

Germany at the Olympics has the tables that correctly explain the various entities. Jmj713 (talk) 21:36, 4 March 2018 (UTC)

Quote from the article "As a result of the Germany being divided, from 1968 to 1990 two independent teams competed in each of the Games; the original designations were GER for the Federal Republic of Germany (West Germany) and GDR for the German Democratic Republic (East Germany). In 1980 the West German code was changed to FRG (which is currently also applied by the IOC in retrospect)." --90.152.126.254 (talk) 15:49, 5 March 2018 (UTC)

Interesting article: "The IOC currently splits these results among four codes, « even though only the German Democratic Republic (GDR) from 1968 to 1988 had sent a separate team to compete against the team of the German NOC that represented Germany (GER) since 1896. »" --DonJusto99 (talk) 16:18, 6 March 2018 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Please provide evidence for the "socking" allegation. I simply have the impression that several people are discussing with an IP (as the Olypmics are a broadly discussed topic at the moment with many occasional WP-users visiting this page). While it can never be fully be excluded that some people are more active in such threads than others, such admin moves should be substantiated with sufficient proof. --188.29.164.169 (talk) 07:29, 10 March 2018 (UTC)

"I simply have the impression that several people are discussing with an IP..." and that situation doesn't look correct. As a checkuser, I do not relate IPs with accounts due to the privacy policy and therefore I can't give you specifics but some appear to be speaking to themselves. I closed and archived the thread hoping to prevent manipulation. There is socking and I have seen it with the CU tool. The closing wasn't meant to prevent editors in good standing from continuing on the article but I was hoping to prevent good faith editors from being duped into something where they think a legitimate consensus formed. But with that warning in mind, editors can carry on.
 — Berean Hunter (talk) 18:45, 10 March 2018 (UTC)

Combining medal totals

I think it makes sense to combine Soviet and Russian medals (Summer and Winter), and since the official Olympic Channel has already done that, let’s just fall in line. I think we can make this page similar to a German one. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gumswick55 (talk • contribs) 13:50, 11 June 2019 (UTC)

Untitled

Hello, I checked this wonderful page, and I noticed that there are two less medals in the total of Romania, in fact in total she won 89 golds, 95 silvers and 122 bronzes, you remove in London 2012 1 silver in women's weightlifting 69 kg . and 1 bronze in men's weightlifting always 69 kg. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.27.181.25 (talk) 22:48, 16 March 2021 (UTC)

They were disqualified from those events. See Romania at the 2012 Summer Olympics and other related articles
SSSB (talk) 09:34, 17 March 2021 (UTC)

Medal tables at bottom of page - explicitly state sorting (and inclusion in the table) method?

It appears the nations are sorted by number of gold medals. Given that it states the tables are for the "overall medal tally" a reader might suspect they are ranked in terms of their absolute number of medals - this could lead to confusion. The Elysian Vector Fields (talk) 04:06, 21 May 2021 (UTC)

The Complete Ranked Medals section is ranked and totaled by Gold medals only. That is, even though the total number of medals appears in a column, the inclusion on the table is based only on Gold medals earned. Thus a country like Australia, for example, is not included although it has more combined medals than some of the other countries in the table. This is confusing and could be fixed in a variety of ways, if only by more explicit labelling.

Peru appearances: 18 or 19?

This edit on 19 July 2021 changed the number of Games appearances for Peru from 18 to 19. Please verify and correct, if necessary. Jeff in CA (talk) 11:23, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

Per the note on the page, the appearance in 1900 is not counted in this table. The page also says that the totals are current through 2018, so 2020 would not be counted. Given those two points, 18 is the correct number. Tokyo 2020 will be Peru's 19th summer appearance, excluding 1900. -- Jonel (Speak to me) 13:10, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

2020 Olympic totals

We're having the usual problem of people wanting to update one nation's total in the middle of the games. As we discussed in 2012 and 2016, the tables are not to be updated until the games are completely over, otherwise it's impossible to tell which nations need to be updated. Bkatcher (talk) 02:26, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

Kuwait and Northern Macedonia Colors on Summer Games Map

I noticed that someone updated the colors of the Philippines, San Marino, Turkmenistan, and Bermuda on the summer games map (yay!). However, they neglected to change the color of Northern Macedonia to silver. Also, the color of Kuwait is some weird mix of gold and bronze, but is not included on the Key. An independent athlete from Kuwait won gold, but only bronze has been won under the Kuwait flag. It should either be made bronze colored or gold with an asterisk. Finally, Togo is also a weird gold/bronze color mix, while it should just be the bronze color like the other countries.— Preceding unsigned comment added by SaintArkweather (talk • contribs) 23:00, 31 July 2021 (UTC)

San-Marino

San-Marino won 3 medals at the Tokyo 2020 ParvizZulfugarov (talk) 15:31, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

This page is not updated until Tokyo 2020 is over. -- Jonel (Speak to me) 17:57, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

 Done
SSSB (talk) 12:28, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

Romania medal total

Romania's combined total shows 3,059 medals, which is a typo. It should be 309 medals.

 Done by someone at some point.
SSSB (talk) 12:29, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 28 July 2021

Change Philippines gold medal count from 0 to 1 138.163.0.43 (talk) 12:39, 28 July 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: the medal tally will be updated after this year's olympic games conclude. ‑‑Volteer1 (talk) 13:45, 28 July 2021 (UTC)

 Done now that the Olympics are over.
SSSB (talk) 12:31, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

Israel medal total

The total should be updated from 9 to 13.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.137.90.216 (talk) 16:14, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

 Done
SSSB (talk) 16:51, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

Russian Empire is not being shown

The Russian Empire Committee (RU1) who competed in 1900, 1908 and 1912 Summer Games (They won 1 gold, 4 silver and 3 bronze medals)...However they are not being shown in the 5th section: Complete ranked medals...When I tried to add them, they were already listed there but they are not being shown...My guess is because the IOC Code has a number in it...Someone has any idea how to fix it? Luks25 (talk) 19:21, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

@Luks25: fixed, not the best fix, but a fix:Special:Diff/1037919393
SSSB (talk) 13:04, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

Venezuela

It seems that the info is mixed up. In the section 'Unranked medal table (sortable)' one can read Venezuela 3 7 9 19 (3G, 7S, 9B - 19T) but in the section 'Complete ranked medals' one can read 73 Venezuela 4 7 10 21 (4G, 7S, 10B - 21T). Cheers. --Alpinu (talk) 23:14, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

Fixed to 3g, 7s, 9b based on Venezuela at the Olympics
SSSB (talk) 13:09, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

Australia medals

To whoever this concerns, Thanks for locking this article and updating it now it's finished. re Australia, there are various sources that list it as one of the few countries who have participated in every summer games and this is generally accepted, and, as we know, it competed as Australasia (ANZ) in 1908/1912.

My question is, in the (successor) tally, should Australasia's (ANZ) 3 Gold 4 Silver 5 Bronze tally be added to Australia (AUS) successor tally total similarly to those of Russia/Germany?? Thoughts Tobyjamesaus (talk) 07:00, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

My initial thought (which is only my opinion) is no. The Germany case arises from the fact that these territories form a part of Germany, they simply didn't compete as Team Germany, but rather a collection of other team names. In the Russia case is the same (ignoring the Soviet Union). The Soviet Union is included because the UN unanimously recognised Russia as legal successor of the rights and obligations of the former Soviet Union.

None of this applies to Australasia. As no-one considers Australasia as the legal predecessor of Australia, nor can we, without delving into WP:OR.

You could just as easily argue that Australasia medals should be added to New Zealand.
SSSB (talk) 09:10, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

Hey, I agree that the medals could be attributed to New Zealand as well, and would need to be if it went that way. Fair enough that those Australasian medals are not included in Australia nor New Zealand. Tobyjamesaus (talk) 05:00, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

Complete Ranked medals "Macedonia"

In this section, MKD keeps appearing as "Macedonia" instead of the correct name North Macedonia. How can this be corrected? Betoota44 (talk) 21:42, 11 August 2021 (UTC)

Think Template talk:FlagIOC is the place to go for that one, if nobody watching this page sees this and assists. -- Jonel (Speak to me) 22:54, 11 August 2021 (UTC)

I fixed it using an extra parameter. Jeff in CA (talk) 23:24, 11 August 2021 (UTC)

I've corrected to link to North Macedonia at the Olympics rather than North Macedonia at the 2020 Summer Olympics
SSSB (talk) 09:13, 12 August 2021 (UTC)

Serbia and Montenegro

This is an old-standing misconception, but because we and the IOC do not see simple name changes as different NOCs, post-breakup YUG and SCG should be combined in official standings and Country at the Olympics articles. For example, see these results from 1996. Jmj713 (talk) 14:52, 28 July 2021 (UTC)

Question: Where does post-breakup Yugoslavia appear with IOC code YUG? In other words, which results labeled with YUG for post-breakup Yugoslavia should be combined with later results labeled with SCG? Jeff in CA (talk) 23:30, 28 July 2021 (UTC)

Look at the tables in Yugoslavia at the Olympics and Serbia and Montenegro at the Olympics. They are inconsistent with the IOC. Yugoslavia's records as such should stop at the 1992 Winter Olympics. From 1996 to 2006 it should be Serbia and Montenegro's records. Even though YUG was used at the time, this is a NOC name change, unrelated to YUG as being pre-breakup Yugoslavia. This would be like, if, let's say Russia and Ukraine remained as part of a union after the breakup of the USSR and the Unified Team, and their records were still kept with that of the USSR. The "Serbia and Yugoslavia" section under Variations in this article is correct, but the main table is not. Jmj713 (talk) 03:00, 29 July 2021 (UTC)

I see what you mean, and I agree wholeheartedly. YUG from 1996-2002 should be the same as SCG from 2004-2006. Same territory, different name only. Jeff in CA (talk) 09:13, 29 July 2021 (UTC)

If you have the time, would you be able to update the two Country articles? These incorrectly reverted edits from a few years ago should be correct: YUG, SCG. And the table in this article needs correcting as well. Jmj713 (talk)

Seems now even the Variations section of this article was incorrectly updated. For the record, the situation is shown correctly here, which is a Featured List. Jmj713 (talk) 01:32, 12 August 2021 (UTC)

OK. Also see here.

Jeff in CA (talk) 13:27, 12 August 2021 (UTC)

Thanks, hopefully we can align all of our articles and tables to correspond to factual IOC records for participation and medals, not just those related to the former Yugoslavia, but I think currently that's the group of NOCs that's in the most need of correcting to conform to IOC. I linked directly to the IOC's website and in 1996 the YUG participation is grouped with SCG, which is logical. Doing anything different is dishonest and appears only political. Jmj713 (talk) 23:05, 12 August 2021 (UTC)

China/Taiwan/ROC footnotes

I know this is probably a fraught area to wade into, but there's an error in the footnotes that are trying to clear up the thorny questions of the relationship between the China, Republic of China, and Chinese Taipei teams. At one point, we say:

Participation of the Republic of China, representing all of China (including Taiwan), in 1932, 1936 and 1948..."

And in another footnote:

The Republic of China was designated as China at the 1932, 1936, and 1948 Games and was representing all of China (including Taiwan).

I get what we're trying to say here -- that the Republic of China team originally represented all of China, but later represented only Taiwan. The problem is that before 1945, Taiwan wasn't part of the Republic of China -- it was under Japanese rule. So it's not accurate to say that the ROC team represented Taiwan in '32 or '36. (Technically Japan hadn't formally ceded Taiwan back to China before the '48 games, but the ROC gov't controlled it de facto so that's less of an issue.)

I have no idea if Taiwanese atheletes participated in Olympics during the period of Japanese rule, but if they did I assume it was for the Japanese team, just like Korean athletes like Sohn Kee-chung did. Anyway, sorry to complicate matters but this seems like an error that needs to be fixed, though I'm not sure what wording would be best. --Jfruh (talk) 05:58, 17 September 2021 (UTC)

Unranked medal table (sortable)

Hello everyone, I noticed that before the Tokyo 2021 Olympics, you made some changes regarding the medal table of the 1900 and 1904 Olympics. 1900: before the medal total was 90-90-88, now it is 96-95-93, so you added 6-5-5 (with BEL which however has 2 silvers more than true). I think you have entered 6 new titles: the ITA-GER-FRA cycling points race with podium (but in the overall total you only count ITA); 2 in equestrian sports with FRA 1 gold, 2 silvers and 2 bronzes and BEL 1 gold; finally 3 in Vela with FRA 2/1/2, GBR 1/1/0, NED 0/1/0 and USA 0/0/1. I think you changed the gold in athletics (Theato) from FRA to LUX, in cycling (Hildebrand) from FRA to GBR, and took silver from FRA in the Basque pelota. In addition, 2 more golds, 2 silvers and 3 bronzes were moved to the mixed team. But these changes were not made in the all-time medal table. In 1904 the medals total was 96-92-92, now it is 97-92-91, where did you add 1 gold? Maybe in water polo (but silver and bronze are missing). Also I think Eagan (USA) bronze was removed in boxing. In 2012 the bronze was reassigned to the SPA in athletics in high jump, and to North Korea in weightlifting, bronze removed from KAZ also in weightlifting. All these changes were not considered in the all time medal table. Also in the 2012 medal table, in weightlifting the CAN went from bronze to silver, is that right? This page is beautiful, we are here to help fix and complete it. — Above unsigned comment added by 5.94.51.10 (talk) 21:43, 22 September 2021 (UTC)

About all revisions of IOC medal tables that were made in July 2021, see:

• Talk:1896_Summer_Olympics_medal_table
• Talk:1900_Summer_Olympics_medal_table
• Talk:1904_Summer_Olympics_medal_table
• Talk:1912_Summer_Olympics_medal_table

Jeff in CA (talk) 22:15, 22 September 2021 (UTC)

In general, 1896-1904 revisions affected the following 16 countries: Mixed team, Australia, Austria, Belgium, Cuba, France, Germany, Great Britain, Greece, Italy, Luxembourg, Mexico, Netherlands, Norway, Switzerland, United States. In All-time Olympic Games medal table, for some of these countries adjustments were made, for some not. Yesterday and today I made all the necessary adjustments for all of these countries. Nitobus (talk) 19:16, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

Russian variations

Just a quick note that the Russian combined table in the Variations section is missing OAR. Jmj713 (talk) 21:10, 7 February 2022 (UTC)

I think the totals from the Russian variations should be deleted. As stated in the text above, that Russia is recognised as successor state by the UN has no impact on medal counts so they should not be added up. Also the doping ban for Russia representatives was in part meant so that the Russian medal tally would not increase, adding them up nevertheless seems to counter this. That Russian sources do this nevertheless is in my view not very relevant as their neutral point of view on this topic is doubtful at the very best. I suggest the keep the table which is informative to some extent but delete the total row (as in Yugoslavia) Arnoutf (talk) 07:57, 9 February 2022 (UTC)

Germany -variants- table

The Germany table gives the totals adding up the medals of both Western and Eastern Germany (during the time they were separated). In my view such addition makes little sense as the totals are uncomparable to those of other countries. For example in the West-East era it would have been possible for Germany to win both the Gold AND the Silver medal in a teams sports (like field hockey). A possibility no other country had. (Also both countries together would have many more places for athletes, similarly stacking the deck in their combined favour). I suggest we keep the table which gives a nice overview but delete the totals row. Arnoutf (talk) 07:57, 9 February 2022 (UTC)

ROC and OAR

It seems that ROC and OAR participation is combined in the main table. This is incorrect, as Russia's NOC (the ROC) was suspended in 2018 when OAR participated. It's a different related (technically independent) appearance and should show separately. Jmj713 (talk) 20:37, 10 February 2022 (UTC)

OAR has been added separately in the main-table and the medals for ROC changed accordingly. Miria~01 (talk) 12:59, 12 February 2022 (UTC)

Does such a table fit in the article? (Top 30 by gold medals per Summer/Winter Games)

Hello, wants to ask here whether such a table (example below) could be inserted in a new section. I made it myself out of interest to see the performance of the nations in the current Games with their achievements throughout their Olympic history.
I think that's interesting, but I totally understand if such comparisons don't fit into the article.
- Top 30 medal ranking by gold medals per Games (Winter Games)
- Top 30 medal ranking by gold medals per Games (Summer Games)
- Top 30 medal ranking by total medals per Games (Winter Games)
- Top 30 medal ranking by total medals per Games (Summer Games)

Top 30 medal ranking by gold medals per Games

Winter Olympics (1924-2018)

No.	Nation	Gold medals per Games	Gold	Winter Games
1	Unified Team (EUN)	9	9	1
2	Soviet Union (URS)	8.67	78	9
3	Russia (RUS)	7.83	47	6
4	Germany (GER)	7.67	92	12
5	East Germany (GDR)	6.5	39	6
6	Norway (NOR)	5.74	132	23
7	United States (USA)	4.57	105	23
8	Canada (CAN)	3.17	73	23
9	Austria (AUT)	2.78	64	23
10	United Team of Germany (EUA)	2.67	8	3
11	Sweden (SWE)	2.48	57	23
12	Switzerland (SUI)	2.43	56	23
13	Netherlands (NED)	2.14	45	21
14	Olympic Athletes from Russia (OAR)	2	2	1
15	Finland (FIN)	1.87	43	23
16	West Germany (FRG)	1.83	11	6
17	Italy (ITA)	1.74	40	23
18	South Korea (KOR)	1.72	31	18
19	France (FRA)	1.57	36	23
20	Czech Republic (CZE)	1.29	9	7
21	China (CHN)	1.18	13	11
22	Belarus (BLR)	1.14	8	7
23	Japan (JPN)	0.67	14	21
24	Croatia (CRO)	0.5	4	8
25	Great Britain (GBR)	0.48	11	23
26	Ukraine (UKR)	0.43	3	7
27	Slovakia (SVK)	0.43	3	7
28	Estonia (EST)	0.4	4	10
29	Poland (POL)	0.3	7	23
30	Australia (AUS)	0.26	5	19

Miria~01 (talk) 21:21, 16 February 2022 (UTC)

Such a “medals per Games” approach has been attempted before and was deleted for being unsuitable. Jeff in CA (talk) 01:19, 18 February 2022 (UTC)

Ok, thanks for info. -Miria~01 (talk) 12:25, 18 February 2022 (UTC)