Talk:Alice Munro/Archive 1

Archive 1

Removed material

Material removed from Munro (disambiguation) page. Espresso Addict 20:53, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for doing that. Those paragraphs were copied directly from the Canadian Encyclopedia, so I have removed them from this page, as well. I've added a couple of bits to our article (which evidently drew from the Canadian Encyclopedia as well but paraphrased, rather than copied). Sunray 21:13, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. It did look like a cut & paste job, but I couldn't find the source. I'll also remove the duplicate from the disambiguation talk page. Espresso Addict 22:29, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Pacific Northwest

I reverted the edit that took out the Pacific Northwest. The books themselves are primary sources for information about where the stories are set, right? I have all the books sitting here on the counter, and many of the stories in the middle-period books are set in British Columbia, specifically Vancouver, which is where Munro moved and established a bookstore with her husband, thus the shifting locale of some of the stories. She's writing the landscape she knew, same as in Ontario. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Geology1001 (talk • contribs) 05:24, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

Sunray, I went to the library and added the reference as requested. Please do not revert the edit again. Geology1001 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 05:22, 6 September 2009 (UTC).

Let me qualify the insertion. To say that most of Munro's work is set in "Ontario or British Columbia" is not, grammatically, to say that as much of the work is set in British Columbia as is set in Ontario. It's simply to say that the preponderance of stories are set in one or the other of these two regions (and sometimes both.) The other places where Munro stories are at least partially set -- a list that includes Scotland, Albania, various other parts of 19th and 20th century Europe, and miscellaneous Canadian or American places to which or from which characters travel -- are not represented as settings as regularly as Ontario or British Columbia. It would be a misnomer to indicate to the reader that British Columbia is not a significant place in the Munro canon, and significant enough to be mentioned in this portion of the Wikipedia article. Geology1001 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 05:35, 6 September 2009 (UTC).

The National Post article you cited [1] actually supports the original wording. It says:

The locus of this Canadian scene rendered so powerfully in her fiction is rural Southwestern Ontario, settled by Scotch Presbyterians, Congregationalists and Methodists from the north of England. Many scenes in her fiction, to be sure, are set in British Columbia (where Munro lived for a time) and even, in the title story of her collection, Too Much Happiness (McClelland & Stewart), in 19th-century Europe. But everything in her world comes back to that small-town milieu of pokey little stores, dull Sunday-afternoon dinners with aunts and uncles, a mentality made up of respect for hard work, resentment of show-offs and dim memories of Calvinist terrors.

The point is, as the National Post article makes clear, Southwestern Ontario is the locus of her stories (even though they may sometimes be set elsewhere). Sunray (talk) 07:07, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

No doubt your wording is true. However, the previous wording was no less true. The question of primacy rises from the fact that the characters tend to follow the biographical patterns of Munro's own life, so of course the locus of story will be Southwestern Ontario, whether the story is set in British Columbia or Albania or anywhere in between, except in those stories in which the character isn't from Southwestern Ontario. But the original question was the question of setting, and, yes, a significant enough percentage of the stories are set in B.C. to warrant the language of the previous revision, which you rejected, and which the National Post article certainly does support. It's late, I'm tired, and I don't understand why you're so dead set on excluding British Columbia from the opening paragraphs when it's clearly one of the two dominant settings for Alice Munro stories, but I don't either have the energy to continue engaging you in the edit war, so you win, but Alice Munro's Wikipedia entry suffers from the omission. Perhaps someone with more energy will take up this matter again later. I hope so. Geology1001 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 08:34, 6 September 2009 (UTC).

You have a point about including more about the BC connection in the article. Right now there is only brief mention of it in the "Biography" section. My concern was more with the way a lead is supposed to be written and the need to base what we claim on reliable sources. A good lead sums up the article. I'm not saying that the lead doesn't need further expansion and improvement, just that it should pull together and sum up the most important aspects of the article.

I would like to remedy the lack information about the influence of her life in BC on her work. Stories she has written with BC as a backdrop do represent some differences from her SW Ontario gothic influences. If you re-gain your energy, perhaps we could try to figure out how best to include this. I will look for some sources. Sunray (talk) 16:02, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

Alleged unsourced POV material

The article stated Munro is "widely considered one of the greatest short story writers in modern literature." Says who? Source? Sounds pretty POV to me. Munro has a fair number of detractors, which her supporter Sue Miller noted in her introduction to the Best American Short Stories of 2002. I reworked to a more neutral statement.207.69.139.11 05:40, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

I don't think the original ("widely considered one of the greatest short story writers in modern literature") is POV, especially if altered to read "widely considered one of the greatest short-story writers in contemporary Anglophone literature." And how is anyone going to source that statement anyway? A.S. Byatt called her "the world's greatest short story writer" and plenty of other people have made similar points. But that still isn't a poll that could accurately source such an idea. And of course she has plenty of detractors--so does every single writer, living or dead,who is of any importance--Shakespeare most definitely included. I haven't reverted or altered it--I'll see if there's a response to this--but I think the statement about her status should be less "neutral" and more accurate. 68.167.113.58 16:07, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

I cleaned up the lede, removing POV and unsourced opinion statements that often reads like original research or something glommed from someone's term paper. Specifically, the issues are as follows (ital indicates material originally in article):

[She is] widely considered one of the world's premier fiction writers.—An unsourced opinion.

Her stories focus on human relationships looked at through the lens of daily life.—Unsourced and/or original research.

[H]er reputation as a short-story writer is international.—Unsourced and/or original research.

Her "accessible, moving stories" explore human complexities in a seemingly effortless style.—Unsourced opinion and/or original research.

All of the above could be returned to the article if sourced.

Munro's writing has established her as "a major voice among fiction writers."—This is sourced but comes directly from her publisher's publicity material and should therefore be identified accordingly, which I have done. 71.175.28.121 (talk) 22:03, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

Those summaries and quotes are from Meyer Literature's site. This is not her publisher. Meyer is a university instructor. The biography on Munro appears with others about Faulkner, Hawthorne, Joyce and O'Connor.

The lead needs expanding beyond its formerly skimpy version. I have no objection to people editing and improving my additions, but please do not just delete sourced material. Sunray (talk) 08:05, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

The material is not sourced. You returned it and put in no citations; therefore, it is not sourced. I have, accordingly, tagged it. Meyer's page is hosted by Bedford/St. Martin's press, which is an affiliate subsidiary of one of her publishers (Bedford/St. Martin publishes study guides for some of Munro's books, as it does for other authors like Faulkner and Joyce). Therefore, it's publicity material. It's not a neutral third party. You can find that kind of publicity on any publisher's website for nearly any author. It would be far better to source from neutral third parties such as from reviews of her books. 71.175.28.121 (talk) 16:29, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

The citation near the end of the paragraph gives you the source. Every word was a paraphrase or a quote of sourced material. If you have concerns about that source, let's discuss that further.

I can find no record of Bedford/St. Martins being Munro's publisher. Her recent books have been published in the UK by Vintage and she has had previous relationships with Penguin and long ago with Random House and Viking. Now I have scant knowledge of the interrelationships of British publishers, so perhaps Vintage is owned by Bedford/St Martins, but I can find no evidence of that. Would you be able to clarify this for me? On the other hand, Bedford/St Martins has established a site with a wide range of resources on literature.[2] Munro is one of the authors (along with the others I mentioned above) who are featured in their "Authors in depth section."[3] Since the "Authors in Depth" biographies are written by Fred Michael Meyer, a university instructor, I tend to seem them as a reliable sources. However, there are lots of other citations we could use with statements about Munro's international fame. Sunray (talk) 21:22, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

The page you linked says it was written by someone named Michael Meyer, not Fred Meyer, but there is no identification on that site who he is. I agree with 71.175.28.121 that a better source should be found for such subjective statements. The page you link is not an informational page; it's a place to sell books. Whether or not Bedford/St. Martins has any relation to Alice Munro is really immaterial because the page you link is promotional material for Michael Meyer. He and Bedford are trying to sell his books, which are study guides for Alice Munro's works. By promoting her, he and Bedford promote themselves, so it's a subjective source, not an objective one. Material like this in a Wikipedia biography diminishes the subject's standing because it sounds like obvious puffery. It's flowery and unencyclopedic IMHO. McPoet (talk) 15:07, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Right, Michael Meyer. As I said, he is an instructor,[4] and I can detect no particular connection with Munro. However, I will find other sources. Sunray (talk) 15:34, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

I've added two references that should shore up our need for reliable sources: One by Garan Holcombe writing for the British Council series on Contemporary Writers and another from the New York Times Magazine. That should do the trick, but if anyone believes that is still inadequate, there are plenty move available. Sunray (talk) 23:19, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

" Thus, particularly with respect to her male characters, she may be said to capture the essence of everyman. Her female characters, though, are more complex" POV ad nauseum ?--— ⦿⨦⨀Tumadoireacht ^Talk/_Stalk 23:57, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

Nice work

It's a good article, so well done to the editors.

I suppose there are no free images. What a pity. Tony (talk) 09:30, 12 October 2013 (UTC)

Tony: This is being discussed in the #Picture section. :-) --MZMcBride (talk) 15:53, 12 October 2013 (UTC)

Removal of category Alice Munro

The category I created to include works by Alice Munro has been removed. I am reverting this edit and requesting a consensus before another removal. XOttawahitech (talk) 14:09, 12 October 2013 (UTC)

This seems like a useful category, and a generally used convention with similar authors. Depending on what you initially use it for, some authors have their works as a sub-category, things like the bookstore she helped start in the main category. But works is a great place to start. __Elaqueate (talk) 14:27, 12 October 2013 (UTC)

There is already a category called Category:Works_by_Alice_Munro and Category:Short_story_collections_by_Alice_Munro. It seems like it is a redundant category. Mike (talk) 16:46, 12 October 2013 (UTC)

@Mrfrobinson: Can you please elaborate - I don't understand what you are trying to say. XOttawahitech (talk) 13:58, 13 October 2013 (UTC)

Mike forgot to put a : in [[:Category:Works_by_Alice_Munro]] so you couldn't see it, I've fixed it Siuenti (talk) 18:09, 13 October 2013 (UTC)

You have created a category for a category. I have nominated it for deletion please see the relevant XFD page.Mike (talk) 17:54, 14 October 2013 (UTC)

@Mrfrobinson: I assume you have replied to my 2nd comment and not to user: Siuenti? – If so, would you please complete your original ambiguous comment in this thread so that we are all on the same page? Thanks in advance, XOttawahitech (talk) 20:04, 14 October 2013 (UTC)

@Ottawahitech: The category you created was nominated for deletion. I think you should have a chance to have a clearer discussion about it, and a chance to decide on what pages are suitable for the category, so I placed an objection. If there had been no objection, I think Mike could have deleted it after seven days, without further discussion if I read the rules correctly. __Elaqueate (talk) 20:10, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

My own opinion at this point is that it will be a useful category if there are more articles directly related to Alice Munro like the bookstore or movie adaptations (John Steinbeck-style). If we look around and there aren't, then I think it would be fine to just have the Works of Alice Munro category (Kenzaburō Ōe-style). But it's worth exploring and discussing before deleting, I think. __Elaqueate (talk) 20:10, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

First significantly Canadian award should be reflected more.

Saul Bellow was considered an American, by himself and others, and certainly at the time he was awarded the Nobel in 1976. At that point he had lived, written, and taught for five decades with little to no investment in Canada. He was about as Canadian as Ted Cruz. His award was based on his exploration of living in the United States, specifically including his boyhood in Chicago, by someone raised there. On the balance, I don't think we should underplay the significance of the first completely non-arguable Canadian Nobel Literature. That doesn't mean pretending Saul Bellow didn't exist, but it is not neutral to overly frame this as some kind of "second time" when in most significant ways it is a first. Before Munro, the answer to this question "Has a Canadian won the Nobel Prize for Literature?", has been "Kind of, but not really." We should find a way to reflect what is actually notable here. I think the New York Times and others call it the first Canadian, with an asterix, but they do not call it the second. First significant Canadian literature Nobel? First Canadian-based Prize? __Elaqueate (talk) 08:04, 11 October 2013 (UTC)

We have a footnote about Saul Bellow. Given that, first Canadian should be fine.--Ymblanter (talk) 09:03, 11 October 2013 (UTC)

In Canada Saul Bellow is often referred to as a "Canadian," unqualified, as inaccurate as that really is. This is where the confusion stems from. 142.35.157.10 (talk) 22:06, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

On specific stories: "The Bear Came over the Mountain": free reader debate started on de.wikipedia

One user feedback here reads that it would be interesting to have articles on specific stories by Alice Munro. Over on de.wikipedia, I have started such entries on "The Bear Came over the Mountain" (1999) and on the story "Hateship, Friendship, Courtship, Loveship, Marriage" (2001). I refer to some academic sources in English that are open access, and hence are particularly accessible. Anyway, I am intending to start some more articles on specific stories, possibly choosing those first that have been made freely available on the Web. Wouldn't mind to cooperate with anyone on en.wikipedia who's in for that, just drop me a line.

Btw, "The Bear Came over the Mountain" has recently been selected as the first test case for a new unofficial forum for the free debate on literary works, started in German, other languages welcome, feel free to join in. Cheers, --Jackentasche (talk) 08:26, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

(Update) Close Reading of "The Bear Came Over the Mountain" (story)

Recently, a readers' debate has been started on Munro's story "The Bear Came Over the Mountain" (2001 version, the last story in the collection by the same title). This is to say, neither the film is being discussed, nor the version that has been made available online by The New Yorker in 2013 (which seems to be an earlier, much shorter, and less well constructed version of the story published 2001). On 25 October, this debate was started on de.wikipedia.org, see here for a preview of the range of topics under debate. In case you do not read German, you might want to try some automatic translation. Anyway, over on that page, contributions to the debate are welcome in any language. If anybody shows any interest here, I might volunteer to do a summary of the debate. We might also start a new one here, of course. --Jackentasche (talk) 06:15, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

Changes suggested

"The list of short stories and web links belong best in the article on the short stories. Also the list of articles and interviews should be removed. Biography articles don't favour long lists or weblinks", somebody recently wrote on my user talk page. I think this should rather belong here, on the article talk page ;-) --Jackentasche (talk) 14:22, 25 December 2013 (UTC)

Sure. You've done loads of work on the article. I didn't want to revert your changes without bringing it up. For short story writers, essayists, journalists etc individual stories, essays, poems etc are not listed as they write so many. Books, collections etc are given in bibliographies. Span (talk) 22:49, 25 December 2013 (UTC)

I think the list of interviews should not be deleted from the article. This is likely what people might want to watch or read first. --Jackentasche (talk) 13:11, 27 December 2013 (UTC)

WP:EL says links should be kept to a minimum. Further reading sections should not be very long. The section is not supposed to be an all inclusive list of everything published about her. WP is not a directory. Span (talk) 21:18, 27 December 2013 (UTC)

Changes suggested

These two statements appear to be contradict each other. Is their first daughter Sheila or Andrea? Munro married James Munro in 1951. Their daughters Sheila, Catherine, and Jenny were born in 1953, 1955, and 1957 respectively; Catherine died 15 hours after birth.[citation needed]

In 1963, the Munros moved to Victoria where they opened Munro's Books, a popular bookstore still in business. In 1966, their daughter Andrea was born. Alice and James Munro divorced in 1972. 19:30, 4 September 2015 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:306:839F:4750:7CF5:46E9:A081:994C (talk)

I do not see any contradiction on the basis of the presented evidence. The first daughter is Sheila, born in 1953.--Ymblanter (talk) 03:09, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

Picture

Photo at the moment is completely unacceptable. have made a flickr request, pending change to CC. http://www.flickr.com/photos/fictiondreamer/3707937535/ Dalek2point3 (talk) 14:29, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

I've removed File:Alice Munro.jpg from the article as I don't believe it's inappropriate for inclusion here. As far as I'm aware, we only use an illustration of this nature if it's notable or significant or created by someone who is notable or significant. I certainly appreciate a Wikipedia user creating and uploading this illustration (I traced it back to nn:Fil:Alice_Munro.jpg). --MZMcBride (talk) 18:04, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

The new image I have added should work I guess. (I still can't believe this image was released in creative commons license.)--Jayarathina (talk) 09:12, 11 October 2013 (UTC)

The new image is fantastic. Thank you so much, Jayarathina! --MZMcBride (talk) 13:08, 11 October 2013 (UTC)

Yes, kudos to the nobel folks for using CC-BY! Dalek2point3 (talk) 13:47, 11 October 2013 (UTC)

So in the end of the day, it was not free.--Ymblanter (talk) 22:29, 11 October 2013 (UTC)

Do we know that? Or was it just a broken or expired link? Maybe Jayarathina can point to where it is? __Elaqueate (talk) 22:31, 11 October 2013 (UTC)

OTRS request to take it down.--Ymblanter (talk) 22:52, 11 October 2013 (UTC)

http://www.nobelprize.org/press/nobelmedia/#/image/view/press-image-alice-munro-2013-nobel-laureate-in-literature-232813 --MZMcBride (talk) 00:54, 12 October 2013 (UTC)

Thank you, thank you very much, the Oracle has left the building--Oracleofottawa (talk) 00:56, 12 October 2013 (UTC)

Yep, that's a copyrighted picture because it is released with a condition needing a credit for use. Too bad. __Elaqueate (talk) 06:17, 12 October 2013 (UTC)

I am sorry I am lost here. Doesn't Crediting comes under Creative Commons Attribution License?? I think I saw the same license to be allowed in Wikimedia commons when uploading Or am I missing something here? --Jayarathina (talk) 11:33, 12 October 2013 (UTC)

I admit I do not know. I think there are different levels of the Creative Commons license, and I'm not sure which one this is. It's a great picture. If it was challenged, can we see the challenge anywhere? __Elaqueate (talk) 11:42, 12 October 2013 (UTC)

Here's one that is claimed as public domain. It might work as a main one while we get another more current one, then it could serve below? __Elaqueate (talk) 11:58, 12 October 2013 (UTC)

Umm, I don't know what to do next. Was the nice photo taken down because of a request like Ymblanter said? If it was I don't want to add it again. But if it was just uploaded incompletely, (missing attribution information) I think we could try again. But I don't know what happened with Jayarathina and MZMcBride. There's still this one if someone know how to upload it. __Elaqueate (talk) 20:53, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, it can be a bit annoying to track down. The image that was previously used in the article was File:Alice Ann Munro (cropped).jpg. It was deleted from Commons due to an OTRS request. --MZMcBride (talk) 21:26, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the info. I didn't want to try again and annoy someone. It was a Creative Commons license that required attribution. Maybe we didn't attribute correctly. Maybe it's time for Plan 2. __Elaqueate (talk) 21:52, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

Hi Elaqueate, Just that you know there were two problems with that image. 1. The author (copyright holder) was the one who raised the OTRS request. He did not want his photo to be released in CC. 2. The nobelmedia which hosted the image had two conflicting licenses issued in the same page. In which case the most restrictive will apply. Admin in wikimedia commons said that he had notified both the author and nobel media regarding this. It seems they have removed the image of Alice Munro from nobelmedia site now. --Jayarathina (talk) 07:55, 16 October 2013 (UTC)

Thanks Jayarathina. That makes it completely clear. If it was a bureaucratic glitch I would have re-submitted but it's not. Thanks for the original work, though. __Elaqueate (talk) 08:06, 16 October 2013 (UTC)

• I was about to add File:Alice Munro.jpg to the infobox when I thought to check here. MZMcBride, could you point me to the policy against drawn images? I agree a photo would be preferable, but it's a pretty good likeness and not "false or disparaging", which I know would run into the images of living persons policy. Thanks! —Neil 00:19, 24 October 2013 (UTC)
  • Hi Neil. I'm not sure we have a policy, though there's probably a guideline somewhere. Depending on how the photo was created, it may be problematic as a derivative work of a copyrighted image. However, I'm not sure there's any need to get into that particular discussion as I think it's much clearer here: it's a very bad photo. Some users argue that any photo is better than no photo and I disagree, particularly when dealing with living people. As far as I'm aware, this photo is not notable and was not created by anyone who's notable. I also can't think of any other example of a living person who has a similar photo in his or her infobox. These four factors (copyright, photo quality, cartoonish/amateurish image being used for a living person's bio, and lack of a clear precedent for this practice) led me to remove the image from the article.
    There's a public domain photo mentioned above that we could use instead. Thoughts on that? --MZMcBride (talk) 02:31, 24 October 2013 (UTC)
    • I agree it's amateur but I definitely wouldn't call it "very bad"; at small sizes, like on the German Wikipedia, I'd even say it has a certain flair. If it were sketch or nothing, I'd pick sketch (although I can see your points, particularly the derivative works one). But we do have the public domain photo, and I'd say that's preferable in either case. —Neil 02:52, 24 October 2013 (UTC)
      • Neil: I uploaded the photo to Wikimedia Commons here: commons:File:Alice Ann Munro.jpg. Feel free to add it to the article's infobox. :-) --MZMcBride (talk) 03:12, 24 October 2013 (UTC)
        • Perfect! I just added it. Judging by Munro's age in the photo, it must date from the 1960s or later, so I confess I'm a tiny bit suspicious about the public domain claim, but I'm sure The Guardian knows more about image licensing than I do. :) —Neil 03:25, 24 October 2013 (UTC)
          • Neil: Challenged here, for reference: commons:Commons:Deletion requests/File:Alice Ann_Munro.jpg. --MZMcBride (talk) 20:42, 26 October 2013 (UTC)

Hi, very weird this page still doesn´t have a picture! Every other Nobel winner has... I have found one quite old, but apparently without copyright: https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7447/11312558546_a0051f2837_b.jpg. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Krieger2000 (talk • contribs) 16:55, 8 August 2016 (UTC)

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Citation for Writing Section

There are almost no citations in the first paragraph of the writing section. Please add some citations to support the claims. --Tdeng (talk) 22:51, 7 March 2017 (UTC)

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Death

The entry re her death seems to come from a tasteless hoax Twitter account masquerading as her publisher (M & S). I suggest revert till more reliable source found. --Michael Goodyear ✐  ✉ 14:27, 11 November 2019 (UTC)

I protected for three days, will unprotect of reliable sources have been provided.--Ymblanter (talk) 14:30, 11 November 2019 (UTC)

It is from a tasteless hoaxer who even has a Wiki entry. See: https://twitter.com/christinemcnair/status/1193896786789896193 :( --M.Buelles (talk) 14:40, 11 November 2019 (UTC)

She's very much alive [5], so those sources won't appear PotentPotables (talk)

• "Beloved author Alice Munro isn’t dead — but a hoax Twitter account has been suspended"