Talk:Ali/Caliphate of Ali

From Talk:Ali/Archive4

Jamal Confrontation and Siffin Confrontation

Zora please do not delete the Jamal Confrontation and the Siffin Confrontation section in Imam Ali ibn Abu Talib’s article because these two events were big things that happened after Imam Ali AS became a caliph. I did read a neutral website on the two events and then I wrote these two things in my own words. If I copied and pasted then these two sections would have been two to three pages long. So please do not delete it because of two reasons. Firstly, these two events were major events that happened when Imam Ali AS became a caliph, and, secondly, I spent a lot of time writing these two sections in my own words. Even thought I am a Shi’a I have tried my best to write these two sections in a neutral format. Thank You Salman

Salman, you have inserted what is basically pious Shi'a propaganda without ANY reference to the rest of the article. You haven't integrated it at all. You shouldn't do that. You have to engage with the article as it is and not just insert your own POV essay wherever you feel like it. Zora 19:48, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Agree with Zora. The language needs to be more factual and less emotional. I realize that the confrontations Ali had were a big deal, but sources need to be cited for anything that is highly debated. Cuñado - Talk 20:27, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Okay fine give me some time to figure out how to source correctly and then i will post the confrontations sections again. But i don't think that the two sections were saying things from the Shi'a point of view. Thank You Salman

Salman, the article already has discussions of the events you want to discuss. You can't just write your personal essay and insert it into the article as if the rest of the article didn't exist. Your contributions have to be PART of the article. Take it one sentence at a time and if you want to add extra material, reference it. Be warned, we may take it out again, or move it to the Shi'a section. You often rely on Shi'a websites that do not give sources and include material that is not based on the earliest historians. Zora 01:04, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

I know the article does in the Caliphate section but not in detail. The Jamal Confrontation and the Siffin Confrontation were two very important events that took place when Imam Ali AS became the Caliph that is also the time when Shi’aism was founded. I e-mail those two sections to wikipedia and asked them to read it and tell me if they think the paragraphs are written from a Shi’a POV. So I am just waiting for their reply. I they say no, then I am just going to repost the two sections under Caliphate section of Imam Ali AS’s page and if they say that they think those paragraphs are written from the POV of Shi’as then I am going to write them again and try my best to be neutral and then I will post it. Okay! Thank You Salman 12:21 PM, 05/11/06

Events may be important, but they won't necessarily be discussed in great detail in the earliest histories. In Islamic history, the detail is often added later, by people who want to make a good story out of it. WP cannot retail those stories as historical fact. Salman, you aren't in the US to study history, but if you're going to try to write it, you're going to have to play by the rules of the historical profession. How about reading Tabari and Baladhuri, rather than relying on Shi'a websites?

I should also add that discussing a few of the events in Ali's life in excruciating detail and leaving the rest as generalities is bad writing, and it's boring to boot. You are not going to attract anyone to Ali, or to Shi'a Islam, with bad writing. Zora 16:28, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Strange

It has been proven that Ali killed thousands of iranians that stood in his way, well you have to assume good faith, they probably deserved it for not forgetting about their language and culuture and converting to islam. But he didn't seem to mind having more than 150 persian wifes, well then again perhaps they liked him for the man he was. --Spahbod 19:55, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Source? --Striver 21:46, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Bahram Moshiri has proven it several times in his television programms, but hes far from the only one with the proofs in his hands, it has been proven a long time ago. Its ok tho, it was not only him, almost every arab including the Imams that walked in persia in the time of the conquest has killed some persians and have had some persian wifes. So the shias don't have to worry about getting all the credit. Ironically it was the Caliphes that limited the amount of persian wifes an arab citizen could have, and if they had not done so there would be no persian women left after a few generations, so you have to give them some credit for thinking about the future. --Spahbod 22:22, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Did i forget to mention, punishment for a persian to have an arab women was death. --Spahbod 22:25, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, i propose you specify your sources better than "he said it in his show" and then add it to non-Muslim view of Ali. --Striver 04:27, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Actually i didn't say "he said it in his show". I said he has proven it over and over by showing parts of historical books and documents that proofs it. However you make a good point, i will have to buy his book Two Disasters, "Two Reflections, describing Mongol and Arab attacks on Iran and their consequences." to add the proof here. I suggest you buy it too. To see, well i was gonna say the truth, but you have to judge for yourself of course. --Spahbod 06:28, 12 July 2006 (UTC)