Talk:Al-Awda school attack

Requested move 2 August 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved to Al-Awda School attack. Pretty much everyone agrees that "massacre" overplays the language of the sourcing, but the objection to "airstrike" is significant. Only a couple of people opposed "attack", and I didn't find the arguments to be dispositive. theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 00:14, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

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Al-Awda School massacre → July Abasan al-Kabira airstrike – The current descriptive title is inaccurate, and violates WP:NCENPOV. The airstrike took place outside the school, and few sources refer to it as a massacre. The proposed descriptive title is more compliant with both WP:CRITERIA and WP:NPOV BilledMammal (talk) 14:04, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

Support per nom. Sourcing is weaker than the other massacre articles. Jdcomix (talk) 01:53, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

• Support The term 'massacre' seems overly dramatic based on the sources. Waqar💬 19:06, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

  @Iwaqarhashmi would you also be ok with "Al-Awda School attack" as the title? VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 20:32, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

  @Vice regent: Yes, it's much better. Waqar💬 20:38, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose 53 deaths is pretty dramatic. Isaac Rabinovitch (talk) 19:41, 3 August 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose "airstrike" as such a title minimizes the killing of 31 people, as a violation of WP:NPOV. Instead suggest Al-Awda School attack. That is consistent with Al-Sardi school attack.VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 22:02, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

  Second VR's suggestion. People who think that Israel is deliberately targeting civilians will favor "massacre," people who deny will favor "airstrike". Both violate NPOV. "School attack" specifically describes what happened while not stating why it happened. Isaac Rabinovitch (talk) 01:13, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

  Why? Airstrike is just more precise than attack, reflects the sources, and is consistent with articles like Al-Fakhoora school airstrikes.

  I don’t see how making the form of attack clear introduces NPOV issues. BilledMammal (talk) 01:19, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

  It's omitting the word "school" that I find problematic. Isaac Rabinovitch (talk) 01:43, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

  Sources say the airstrike was outside the school. BilledMammal (talk) 01:57, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

  @BilledMammal:, sources say the attack was either in the school itself[1][2][3], in the school's courtyard[4], or "next to the gate of" the school[5]. Perhaps not a single RS refer to the attack without using the word "school". By contrast, some RS on the attack don't mention "Abasan al-Kabira" at all[6][7][8].VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 20:31, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

  @BilledMammal, consider responding to me here before you go to other articles and remove content[9] under the pretext that there are no sources that locate this attack at a school.VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 10:09, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

• Support as the sources seem to mostly use the word strike. Al-Awda School Strike or Al-Awda School Attack would also work. Alaexis_¿question? 08:00, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

  "Al-Awda School Strike" is misleading because this article is about an attack, not a protest (eg see Goulburn School Strike is about a protest). VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 20:36, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose - sources are focused on the attack on the school. NBC News, Al-Jazeera, CBC for example. This is obfuscating what was attacked. nableezy - 12:02, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose as this appears motivated by an attempt to spare Israel's reputation. Leaked guidestyles by American outlets show most US media "massacre" and related terms in a biased way: it's massacre when it happens to Israelnot massacre when Israel does it. Rafe87 (talk) 12:34, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Oppose several sources call and describe this as a massacre

https://www.aljazeera.net/amp/news/2024/7/11/صواريخ-أميركية-فتكت-بالمدنيين-في

https://wafa.ps/Videos/Details/8244

https://www.dostor.org/4756071

https://nabd.com/s/139796621-42797d/شاهد-لحظة-ارتكاب-مجزرة-مدرسة-العودة-شرق-خانيونس The Great Mule of Eupatoria (talk) 16:16, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

*Oppose sources focus on the Palestinian deaths; 'airstrikes' minimises the importance of this. The main point of the article is to emphasise the deaths, thus "massacre" is appropriate. Ecpiandy (talk) 14:41, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

• • The main point of the article is to emphasise the deaths, thus "massacre" is appropriate. No, the main point of the article is to report the fact. This is an encyclopaedia, not a soapbox for one cause or another. -- Necrothesp (talk) 09:17, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
• Support Abasan al-Kabira airstrike or Al-Awda School airstrike. Why is the month necessary? And if it is, it should have a year too. "Massacre" is a term that should only be used if most sources use it. We are not here to make up names for political reasons or to WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS. We are an encyclopaedia. Strange how many editors seem to forget this. -- Necrothesp (talk) 11:48, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

  I don’t mind the change from massacre, I do mind removing school and I do mind not calling it an attack. Intentionally obfuscating what was attacked isn’t exactly different from making up names for political reasons. nableezy - 12:08, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

• Comment I'm not sure how so many editors have got the idea that "airstrike" opposed to "attack" is somehow not NPOV. Certainly, there are clear NPOV differences between "airstrike" and "massacre". But an "airstrike" is only a particular type of attack, namely one in which military airplanes drop bombs. Nothing more, nothing less. It does not imply precision, nor that the airstrike was carried out on military targets. Some editors are saying that "airstrike" somehow downplays the civilian casualties, but that's simply not the case. In fact, if "airstrike" downplayed the civilian casualties, then using "attack" would also do that. Gödel2200 (talk) 21:29, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose This is an attack on a school per Attacks on schools during the Israeli invasion of Gaza. The very least should be Al-Awda school attack. Selfstudier (talk) 09:40, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose: It's a bizarre suggestion to move the title away from the precise location of a school, as identified in the sources, to a general and obscure area. Iskandar323 (talk) 11:27, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose - not to be extremely That Guy about it, but we refer to the Bucha Massacre as a massacre despite RS using "attack" or "battle" or "murders", we can refer to this as a massacre as well.Smallangryplanet (talk) 12:48, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

I don't think this is a valid argument. They're independent. The naming of one doesn't tell you anything useful about naming the other. The names will be based on 2 non-overlapping sets of sources. We can refer to any event as a massacre if that's how the majority of sources refer to it. That may not be the case here. Sean.hoyland (talk) 13:48, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

BOLD decapitalization

note that after closing the above RM, I separately and BOLDly moved the article to decapitalize the "S" in "school", since it looks like the sources don't support the capitalization. Feel free to revert, take to RM, all that. theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 00:17, 11 August 2024 (UTC)