Talk:Al-Asha'ir Mosque

Confusion about mosque identity

There are a lot of historic mosques in Zabid and not many studies of them (that I can find), apart from those by Noha Sadek (now cited in article). One problem I encountered while revising is that some of the images in the Commons category for this topic (particularly of the building exterior) appeared to be the al-Iskandiriyya Mosque, not al-Asha'ir, based on ArchNet and also by consulting the map in Sadek's 1998 article and then comparing with clearly visible satellite imagery of each mosque on Google (al-Asha'ir should be around coordinates 14°11'41.97"N, 43°19'25.13"E). Unfortunately, I haven't been able to determine what images we have, if any, of al-Asha'ir mosque.

Additionally, there seems to have been some confusion between this mosque and the "Great Mosque" (Jami al-Kabir) of Zabid, which according to Sadek are two different buildings. Looking at Sadek's map and also at detailed architectural plans in Finster 1992, and comparing with Google satellite imagery, there is indeed a much larger mosque in the northwest of the old city which appears to be the actual Great Mosque. When I have a moment, I'll convert the redirect page Great Mosque of Zabid into at least a separate stub, to reduce future confusion. R Prazeres (talk) 00:16, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

It seems that this article (Keall 1983) has a clearer/simpler map of Zabid's main mosques, with brief in-text details on the Asha'ir Mosque but also a detailed floor plan of it, unlike Sadek 1998. The coordinates of this structure appear to be around 14°11'42.73"N, 43°18'59.93"E. This is different from those above, based on Sadek 1998's map, which I suspect contains an error in this regard (possibly the numbering got mixed up in that map, I don't know). Comparing the floor plan in Keall 1983 with satellite imagery of this location, Keall's map seems to be more correct.

And based on this, the mosque seems to be safely identifiable with this image in Commons, which is also explicitly labelled as the Asha'ir mosque. This second image, also labelled Asha'ir Mosque in Commons by the same uploader and taken around the same time, is probably also correct, but it's harder to be sure since many whitewashed hypostyle halls of this kind probably look similar. (The same uploader also labelled this image as the same mosque, previously used as lead image here, but this is where there must be definite confusion, because it's clearly a different mosque with a domed layout and different minaret, not matching Keall 1983.) This all seems to match up better and more clearly, so I've added the first aforementioned image to the article for now. R Prazeres (talk) 04:54, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

Mosque's name

Hello @R Prazeres:, regarding your reverting of my edits here, Yes, I think I was a bit hasty in moving the page! After doing some research, I found you are right! The official name and all scholarly sources almost name it "al-Asha'ir" without the letter “a” at the end. But at least it should be noted in the lead section that the mosque is also known with the name: "al-Asha'ira". See: Annual Report 2016, page 30, "The oldest part of Al-Asha’irah mosque discovered during 2016, Zabid – Al Hodeida". Anyway, it's not a big deal and sorry for the inconvenience. Peace.--TheEagle107 (talk) 06:24, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

Hi TheEagle107. No problem, thank you for understanding. And thank you for finding an English source that shows the other version. This rendition of the name doesn't show up anywhere else (in English sources), so I'm not sure it's worth including yet as an alternate English rendition. I was wondering whether maybe there are scholarly Arabic sources in particular that name it جامع الأشاعرة (as opposed to جامع الأشاعر), and if so, whether it might be worth including it as a second Arabic name in parentheses, so that Arabic readers are aware of it. I'm a little wary about the possibility that some less scholarly sources could also be following the Arabic Wikipedia article, which was moved to جامع الأشاعرة a while ago; perhaps correctly, or perhaps due to an editor's WP:OR. It's not urgent, but I'm open to any further feedback. Cheers, R Prazeres (talk) 06:38, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

Hello again, thanks for your kind reply. Through my search, I found that MOST English sources name it "al-Asha'ir". But as for the Arabic sources, they use both versions. As you know, there is no difference in meaning between "al-Asha'ir" and "al-Asha'ira", both have the same meaning, which is "the Ash'aris", named after Abu Musa al-Ash'ari, a well-known companion of the Prophet Muhammad, or named after Abu al-Hasan al-Ash'ari according to this source.

I will mention here some of the Arabic sources that name it "al-Asha'ira":

Online websites

• "العثور على محراب أثري خلال أعمال ترميم لجامع الأشاعرة في زبيد". yemen-nic.info (in Arabic). National Information Center of Yemen. Archived from the original on 13 Feb 2024.
• "علماء يمنيون يعثرون على محراب بجامع الأشاعرة بمدينة زبيد التاريخية". youm7.com (in Arabic). Youm7. Archived from the original on 13 Feb 2024.
• "مسجد الأشاعرة.. تقاليد رمضانية فريدة في منارة اليمن الروحية". al-ain.com (in Arabic). Al-Ain News. Archived from the original on 13 Feb 2024.
• "علماء يمنيون يعثرون على محراب بجامع الأشاعرة بمدينة زبيد التاريخية". elbalad.news (in Arabic). Sada El-Balad. Archived from the original on 13 Feb 2024.
• "مسجد الأشاعرة باليمن عمره 1377 سنة". albayan.ae (in Arabic). Al-Bayan (newspaper). Archived from the original on 13 Feb 2024.

Books

• Hassan Hallaq (2009). المعالم التاريخية والأثرية والسياحية في لبنان والعالم العربي (in Arabic). Lebanon: Dar al-Nahda al-'Arabiyya. p. 293. ISBN 9796500084282 – via Google Books. ومن المساجد المميزة في اليمن عامة هي: الجامع الكبير في صنعاء، وجامع الجند في بلدة الجند، وجامع الأشاعرة في زبيد. وهذه المساجد الثلاثة مع مئات المساجد المنتشرة في اليمن تعتبر تحفة فنية رائعة.
• Khalaf ِِAli Alkhalaf; Qussai Muslat Alhwaidi (2021). الحرَّانيون السُّومريون: في أصول ومعتقدات العشائر الزراعية في الجزيرة والفرات (in Arabic). Jidar for Culture & Publishing. p. 219. ISBN 9798452881261 – via Google Books. نشأت عن تجمع عدد من القرى السكنية لقبيلة الأشاعرة، وقد ساعد وجود الوادي ووفرة المياه والي الخليفة المأمون محمد بن عبد الله بن زياد الأموي على تخطيط المدينة ذاتها بالقرب من "جامع الأشاعرة" في عام 819 ميلادية
• Zayd al-Fadil (2012). الحركة الثقافية في اليمن (in Arabic). Dar Sibawayh for Printing, Publishing and Distribution. p. 29 – via Google Books. ومن أشهر تلك الأربطة والمدارس المسجدية، رباط السادة آل الأهدل، ورباط البطاح، علاوة على الدور العلمي الكائن في جامع الأشاعرة، والجامع الكبير بالمدينة
• Muhammad b. Muhammad b. Yahya Zabarah (1998). 'Adil Ahmad 'Abd al-Mawjud; 'Ali Muhammad Mu'awwad (eds.). نيل الوطر من تراجم رجال اليمن في القرن الثالث عشر (in Arabic). Vol. 1. Dar al-Kutub al-'Ilmiyya. p. 109. ISBN 9782745126238 – via Google Books. ولما مات شيخه محمد بن الزين في سنة 1252 كما سيأتي ذكر ذلك في ترجمته قام صاحب الترجمة مقامه بوظيفة التدريس في جامع الأشاعرة بزبيد

I hope this helps. Cheers!--TheEagle107 (talk) 03:46, 13 February 2024 (UTC)

Thanks! Yeah that's the impression I got after looking. I think we should just add it as a second Arabic translation in parenthesis, like I suggested above. Feel free to do so, or I'll do it when I have a moment. R Prazeres (talk) 03:59, 13 February 2024 (UTC)

Go ahead. 👍 Regards and thanks. 💚--TheEagle107 (talk) 18:30, 13 February 2024 (UTC)

References