Talk:Akiko Hatsu

Deletion?

What? Hatsu is an extremely important post-Year 24 Group manga artist. The article is currently bare-bones, but I can add plenty of referenced material. She was an assitant to Moto Hagio. She was a member of the dōjinshi group that invented the term "Yaoi." She remains a popular artist in the magazine Nemuki. The Japanese Wikipedia article is also bare-bones, but this should not be seen as an indicator of a lack of importance. It's just an indicator of how lame the Japanese Wikipedia is. I will add new information as soon as I find time. PLEASE do not delete this article. In the interest of full disclosure, I should note that I am friends with Hatsu, was a colleague of hers while she was teaching at Kyoto Seika University, and wrote the afterword for Vol. 5 of the bunko ("pocketbook") edition of her 雨柳堂夢咄 (Uryūdō yume banashi). On the other hand, I am considered something of an expert on shōjo manga and that genre's history, and though I am friendly with plenty of professional artists who I don't think merit an article on the English-language Wikipedia, Hatsu is not one of them. Matt Thorn (talk) 06:32, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

Responses to the AfD should be posted at the AfD. However, as you have already noted that you are her friend, you have a clear conflict of interest and should refrain from editing the article. However, if you wish to respond to the AfD, again, please do so at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Akiko Hatsu, making sure to note your relationship to her, and perhaps providing some of the references you mentioned having (or posting them here).-- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 06:36, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

Though, as long as he provides legitimate and solid sources, I see no problem with him editing the article due to his status as the de facto English-language expert on shōjo manga. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 06:39, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, it does seem odd that I should be forbidden from editing articles about notable people I've become friendly with during two decades of researching shōjo manga, considering that I have more knowledge about them than just about any native- or near-native speaker of English in the world. If I were to follow that rule strictly, I would be unable to contribute to articles about dozens of prominent manga artists, even if I knew the articles contained errors or could provide references. But thanks for the warning. From now on I'll be careful not to be so forthcoming. Matt Thorn (talk) 12:28, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

I have already voted to keep this article on the AfD page. I also added a web source to the article for two of her books in e-book format. I don't know her personally at all, and have no COI about this. However, she is, as Matt Thorn said, an important post-Year 24 Group artist. IMO, we do not have enough material on Wikipedia about women mangaka, and deleting Hatsu removes an article about a woman artist. That, IMO, is a step in the wrong direction. I am not concerned if she is less famous among Anglophone readers than Naoko Takeuchi and Sailor Moon -- what US fans know and do not know is not a criterion for inclusion on Wikipedia.

Second, to prove non-notability means showing -- or having good reason to believe -- that some garage band somewhere has never performed in public, has never been noticed in a local or national newspaper or other media, has not recorded anything. Or, if not a garage band, then an artist. If I created an article about Anthony ("Lumpy") Winkerstalz, the unpublished and unknown artist who drew "Mangle Meets the Mob" in his spare time, but who has never published it or anything else, then, yes, Lumpy Winkerstalz fails notability. But if Hatsu Akiko has published as many manga as she has, and her books are on sale on the website I cited, why, then, yes, she is notable.

Timothy Perper (talk) 12:39, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

I want to confirm Malkinann's quote from Christopher Bolton's edited book Robot Ghosts... about Hatsu Akiko. I have the book in front of me, and the sentence, as quoted, says Akiko Hatsu (p. 223). I hope that clarifies that issue.

I should also add that the COI guidelines do not prohibit an expert from citing his or her own work or knowledge, properly sourced, when writing for Wikipedia.

Timothy Perper (talk) 12:49, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

Sources

Here are some sources, all in Japanese, unfortunately. I'll try to sort out how they might be used. Apart from Hatsu's official website, there is not much substantive material on the Web. There are plenty of reviews on personal logs, but the reviewers are for the most part not noted experts. I did find an online interview, though:

• An interview with Akiko Hatsu on the website of the Japan Manga Academy (日本漫画学園, Nihon Manga Gakuen). This is not a very long interview, and focuses on her path to becoming a professional manga artist, but this is no doubt because the site is intended for would-be manga artists. This is a decent source of information on how she went from being a teenage assistant to her famous older sister to becoming a pro. It was a surprisingly long and difficult path.

Print sources:

• An interview with Hatsu in the Summer 2002 issue of the now semi-defunct magazine, Comickers. Since Comickers was a technically-oriented magazine, the interview focuses on the subject of "structure" (narrative and visual), using her Chinaman's House (唐人屋敷, Tōjin yashiki) as a case study. But it's a fairly long interview (in teeny tiny print) and the last two pages are dedicated to questions about her pro debut and career. This should be a useful source. I need to read it again carefully to see what specifically could be useful.
• An interview in the 1999, No. 5 issue of Special Edition Puff: Comic Fan (別冊ぱふ コミック・ファン, Bessatsu Pafu Komikku Fan). I've just purchased a copy and it should arrive in a couple of days.
• An introduction to/recommendation of Hatsu's Uryūdō Dream Tales (Uryūdō yume banashi) in a librarian's guide to young adult literature, published in 1998. I've just ordered this one, too. It should be interesting.
• The afterwords in the Bunkobon editions of Hatsu's books. These are usually written by various critics and experts and can be good source of references for critical analysis of Hatsu's work. The one I wrote focuses on Hatsu as a teacher, and includes numerous quotes from students, but it's hard to see how this one could very useful in this article, except for a couple of lines regarding Hatsu's precision and attention to detail. I'll take at look at what others wrote and see what might be useful.
• Here's one fan's bibliography, which is pretty helpful (if you read Japanese).

I'll post new info as I find it. Matt Thorn (talk) 16:00, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

Body of work

I took the liberty of removing the vague and unreferenced sentence, " She has published over 30 works since her manga debut in 1981." The problem is what is defined as a "work", particularly in Hatsu's case, since much of her work is more or less self-contained short stories that are part of a series, as in the "Uryūdō Dream Tales" and "Beautiful England" series. I'm not sure what the best way to describe the amount of her output would be. We could mention the magazines she has worked in most extensively, e.g., DUO, Grapefruit, Petit Flower, Strange Stories for Sleepless Nights (later changed to Nemuki), and Flowers. She's been published in plenty of other magazines, but these are the ones where she has done the bulk of her work. If Amazon.co.jp is any indication, she currently has 36 books in print, though some are different editions (wide-ban and bunko) of the same works. Then again, I'm not sure how important it is to talk about quantity. Matt Thorn (talk) 07:38, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

What would be important would be to determine if critics have talked about her "style" or "voice" in her manga, and what they've said (without being too effusive or damning ourselves) - that would go a way towards satisfying WP:CREATIVE. -Malkinann (talk) 08:35, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

For that, I'll fetch my bunko editions of her work and see what critics say about her work. Matt Thorn (talk) 09:30, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Photo

I just sent e-mail to Hatsu asking if she could send me a photo of herself we could use here. I'll report again when I hear back from her. Matt Thorn (talk) 15:22, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Because she's a living person (and thus could theoretically be photographed by a Wikipedia user), the photograph needs to be under a free license, as WP:NFCC doesn't allow copyrighted images when free ones can be taken. Please read Wikipedia:Requesting copyright permission for more details. -Malkinann (talk) 22:15, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Specifically Wikipedia:Requesting_copyright_permission#For_images. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 03:12, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

Eek. Sounds like a lot of trouble, particularly since there seems to be no Japanese version of the waiver. Maybe I'll just wait till the next time she comes to Kyoto and photograph her myself. Matt Thorn (talk) 08:01, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

I got a response from Hatsu. She'd rather not have her photo used, but offered to contribute a self-caricature. I don't want to go against her wishes re the photo, but I'm wondering about the self-caricature. Any precedent for using self-caricatures/self-portraits for cartoonists' articles in lieu of a photo? Matt Thorn (talk) 00:01, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

If she releases it under a free license, then there's no problem. Otherwise, one can't be used unless she is dead, in which case a photo is preferable. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 04:42, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

I can explain it and get her to sign the release when she gives it to me. Matt Thorn (talk) 07:52, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

If she chooses a license so that we can upload it on the Wikimedia Commons, then the image can be used in her other biographies easily too. -Malkinann (talk) 00:11, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

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