Talk:Abu Hanifa Dinawari

Put the records right please

Note Dinwari according to Encyclopedia Iranica is not Kurdish. Also Yaqubi, the geographer and traveller maintains that Dinvar is a city whose inhabitants are a mixture of Arabs and Ajams.

According to prof. Mehrdad R. Izady he was a Kurd. Kirmashan and Dinawar are also predominantly Kurdish. Yaqubi says "Dinawar is a city whose inhabitants are a mixture of Arabs and Ajams." - Ajam originally means non-arabs, but has later come to define especially Persians, but the original meaning is non-arabs.

Dinawari was Kurdish. Just look at his book about the ancestors of Kurds. It's clearly written in a Kurd's POV. Plus, many of the Kurdish principalities/dynasties were circulated around Dinawar so Kurds did clearly form the majority of that area. There are no sign of him being Persian so I don't know why Encyclopedia Iranica is writing that he was Persian. But it's also important to know that around this time Kurds were seen as nomadic tribes of Persia and were also sometimes labeled as Persians. But still, he was what we today call Kurds and NOT Persian. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.249.87.235 (talk) 20:24, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

This is very strange. Was Dinawari, whom was from the same kurdish tribe as my family, a persian who was among THE FIRST whom wrote about persian ancestry in a book about the KURDISH people? This makes no sense. Clearly it is the work of persian nationalists. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.162.94.91 (talk) 04:48, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

I changed the article a bit; he most likely was a Kurd, since he was born in Dinavar, and wrote a book about the ancestry of the Kurds; but we can't be certain, and since there are academic sources that say he was a Persian (though, this is no doubt because every Iranian is considered Persian by default untill proven otherwise), we have to respect that. Znertu (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 12:09, 4 April 2012 (UTC).

I think the IRANICA and Enc of Islam believe it was just a common practice that in 900AC people work up and wrote about things that did not matter to them. Abu Hanifa was not Kurdish but wrote about his own ancestry in his own word. 1200 years later an Arab, Persian find it professionally and ethical amusing to just ignore the writers word and say "We believe that Dinewer is in Iran and there for he was Persian". The X scholar guy has never been close to Dinewer and he even can not pronounce the name. Even today area are mostly inhabitant by the Kurds, and predominate by Yarsans. Even today the best fruit, dairy products are form Dinewr area. When you go to shops in down town Kirmashah the store proudly tells you, they have Yoghurt from Dinewer. Well Prof Izady rightly put the record correct and being a Muslim does not make you Persian or Arab. IRANICA is based on lie and deceiving ethical of scholarly work. Made up 2500 years of history with no references, No Iranian ruled in Iran between Hakhamaneshi and Pahlawi dynasty, but they still dig and falsify the history. If it was not for Taymore Persian was replaced by Arabic and Turkish. One need to be truthful to history to be able to write about history.

Birth/death year

It seems strange to me that (given two calendars that don't start on the same day of the year) Wikipedia has a precise birth/death year in the Christian calendar and a range of two years for birth/death year in the Islamic calendar. I would think if any precise records of this individuals birth and death date exist they would use the Islamic calendar (which would then imprecisely correspond to a range of two years in the Christian calendar). Plantdrew (talk) 04:04, 2 April 2016 (UTC)

External links modified

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Recent revert

@William M. Connolley: First of all, you should explain that "nationalism nonsense", that's a serious personal attack. Second, you should explain your revert with a good edit summary, some reason more than "nationalism nonsense". Both Iranica and EOI explicitly mentioned that he was of Iranian origin. There's a consensus regarding the unreliability of Britanica. And, as I mentioned, Ludwig W. Adamec is a specialist on modern Afghan history. That means we can't use Britanica or Adamec. So, either explain your revert, or I have to revert you. -- Mazandar (talk) 20:42, 6 March 2017 (UTC)

There's a consensus regarding the unreliability of Britanica? William M. Connolley (talk) 21:19, 6 March 2017 (UTC)

Couldn't find the actual link to the consensus right now, but see this. -- Mazandar (talk) 21:43, 6 March 2017 (UTC)

Perhaps you should do some research next time before you revert and rudely call a users edit for "nationalism nonsense", William. Just wanna comment that 'Kurd' wasn't an ethnic term at that time, but was instead used to describe Iranian nomads. --HistoryofIran (talk) 22:23, 6 March 2017 (UTC)

WP:FORUM
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
To the anti-Kurdish Persian: stop changing the meaning of the word Akrad "Akrad" is the Arabic word for "Kurd". It does not mean and has never meant "nomad". Stop your bullshit and quit changing a historic fact. The book is called "The origins of the Kurds". Not "The origins of the Nomads". If the book is about the origin of the nomads, then is it about all nomads the world has ever known? Do all nomads have the same ancestry? How is it even possible to write a book on the origins of a people with a ***LIFESTYLE***. It is obviously a book about the origins OF AN ETHNIC GROUP. Go to the Arabic page and copy-paste the arabic-written title of that book and paste it in the translation service of your choice; it translates to Kurd and has always meant that. There are plenty of historic castles in Syria and other parts of the Levant with "Akad" in their original name. If you change it again, I will request this item to be revised by an admin and have you banned and this article locked. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.82.163.173 (talk) 13:13, 7 July 2017 (UTC)

Ludwig W. Adamec

@HistoryofIran: Can you explain us why Ludwig W. Adamec is not a reliable source? Is there a consensus regarding the unreliability of Ludwig W. Adamec? Btw what is the difference between these 1 and 2 edits? Why do you accept one but not the other? I don't think that Persian ethnocentric edits are helpful for neutrality of Wikipedia. ;) Cheers! Gomada (talk) 12:25, 30 October 2022 (UTC)

Pretty rich of you accusing me of "Persian ethnocentric edits" when you think 1 source regarding a Kurdish origin equals 8 regarding a Persian origin. Also, that's not what WP:UNDUE means, feel free to read it when you are done casting WP:ASPERSIONS on your fellow editors. I simply overall reverted you - free to move the ethnicity down, I don't mind. --HistoryofIran (talk) 12:31, 30 October 2022 (UTC)

Warning

Why are you trying to erase Kurdish history and personalities when there are reliable sources and documents in these fields? Kurdistan homeland (talk) 13:00, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

Ethnicity

@HistoryofIran you mentioned yourself that "Didnt write in Persian nor lived in a government where Persian had a official status."

But yet you added "Of Persian stock at the beginning of the article". Can you please fix that? Tekosh (talk) 16:47, 20 August 2023 (UTC)

Did you not see the references?

• Nadim (al-) 1970, p. 981, II.
• Cahen 2006, p. 198.
• Pellat, Charles. "DĪNAVARĪ, ABŪ ḤANĪFA AḤMAD". ENCYCLOPÆDIA IRANICA. Retrieved 27 April 2016.
• Cahen, Claude (2006). Young, M.J.L.; Latham, J.D.; Serjeant, R.B. (eds.). Religion, learning, and science in the ʻAbbasid period (1. publ. ed.). Cambridge: Cambridge University Press. p. 198. ISBN 978-0521028875. "Abu Hanlfah al-DInawarl was a Persian of liberal outlook, who took an interest in botany among other sciences."
• Clarke, Nicola (2018). "al-Dinawari". In Nicholson, Oliver (ed.). The Oxford Dictionary of Late Antiquity. Oxford University Press. p. 484. ISBN 978-0192562463.
• Brill Publishers (2014). Iran in the Early Islamic Period: Politics, Culture, Administration and Public Life between the Arab and the Seljuk Conquests, 633-1055. Bertold Spuler. p. 225. ISBN 9789004282094.
• Esposito, John L. (1999). The Oxford History of Islam. New York: Oxford University Press. p. 211. ISBN 9780195107999. "At the same time, these treatises were being translated, the Persian botanist Abu Hanifa al-Dinawari (ca. 815-95) was compiling his botanical lexicon Kitab al-Nabat (The book of plants), which represented the culmination of a tradition in which autonomous botanical writings were part of the sciences of the Arabic language."
• Davaran 2010, p. 160.

Wikipedia is written using reliable sources. We, as editors, simply take what is published in reliable sources to write Wikipedia, not anyone's opinion.--Kansas Bear (talk) 18:00, 20 August 2023 (UTC)

All of these resources just mention the term Persian without any reliable sources. The region that is called Dinawar and that's where Dinawari was born at, is a Kurdish region. Do the resources talk about him being Persian but moved to live in a Kurdish region 1200 years ago?

I understand that Persians' influence on the western historians has been huge but them writing Abu Hanifa Dinawari was Persian is wrong on many levels. We're here to fix historic mistakes like this. We're here to stop the appropriation Persians have done against the Kurds. Tekosh (talk) 18:45, 20 August 2023 (UTC)

Oddly you added Kurdish with zero sources. Where are your sources that support a Kurdish ethnicity? --Kansas Bear (talk) 18:02, 20 August 2023 (UTC)

https://kurdistanica.com/282/abu-hanifa-ahmad-dinawari/

https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3866894

https://history.fandom.com/wiki/Kurdistan Tekosh (talk) 18:48, 20 August 2023 (UTC)

Let me get this straight, you want Persian removed which is supported by Oxford University Press(twice), Cambridge University Press, Brill, and numerous other academics and you think history.fandom.com is a reliable source?? I suggest taking all three to the Reliable Sources Noticeboard. --Kansas Bear (talk) 18:56, 20 August 2023 (UTC)

Yes I want it removed becasue those resources you mentioned don't have any valid reasoning for calling him Persian. In Persian langauge, the letter "W", doesn't even exist, if he was Persian his name would be Dinavari, but that's now how his name is pronuounced. He was born in a Kurdish town, he has books on botani in Arabic that uses terms that are only used in Kurdish. I showed you 3 references, but there are many more and an earth map is another resource that is universal enough for everyone to understand why I say he is Kurdish.

I looked at the Cambridge book, it uses Persian without any context or resources for their claim. Tekosh (talk) 02:54, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

The Cambridge History of Iran and other books are not written to satisfy you, and they're not unreliable just because they don't support your POV. If you think they're unreliable, take it to WP:RSN, though we all know what's going to happen. Moreover, as you already been told, we rely on WP:RS, not the opinions of users, so please keep the personal analysis of Dinawari to yourself. I suggest you WP:DROPTHESTICK. --HistoryofIran (talk) 11:11, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

Thanks buddy. I will take it to the authors of the book and discuss it with them. I will try to mention feedback here for all interested people. Thanks for your comment. Tekosh (talk) 18:58, 21 August 2023 (UTC)