Talk:Abdur Raheem Green

Undeleted

This article was deleted but, after a deletion review, was undeleted, here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Deletion_review/Log/2012_April_6#Abdur_Raheem_Green_.28closed.29 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Leaf Green Warrior (talk • contribs) 18:43, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

Disputed section removed per BLP

Neither the Daily Star nor Stand for Peace are reliable sources - one is a tabloid with a dubious reputation for reliability and the second is a partisan advocacy blog. The other referenced sources cannot be verified, as they do not make the claims themselves - rather, they pass off the claims to another blog, "Harry's Place," which is also not a reliable source. I have removed the content in question as poorly-sourced contentious negative material about a living person, as directed by the Biographies of living persons policy.

Do not reinsert any material removed under BLP until the claims and sources issues have been worked out here. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 16:52, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

Hi NorthBySouthBaranof,

I think there are basically 2 points that are disputed. The first is the claim that Green has been banned from delivering lectures at UCL for gender segregation. The sources provided for this are:

• The Daily Star Newspaper
• Stand For Peace

You mentioned that The Daily Star "is a tabloid with a dubious reputation for reliability". I don't think it is correct to make such a statement. I had a quick look at the Press Complaints Commission website and noted that the Daily Star appears in roughly the same number of occasions as other UK newspapers. That being the case, is it correct to consider the Daily Star as an unreliable source? Should we consider all tabloid newspapers as unreliable? Please provide a source for this.

Stand for Peace describes itself as "an interfaith counter-extremism organisation based in London." A number of media organisations have referred to Stand for Peace such as:

• The Independent (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/islamic-group-urges-sobriety--and-invests-in-bar-chain-8782793.html)
• Metro (http://metro.co.uk/2013/04/25/ukip-candidate-anna-marie-crampton-suspended-over-holocaust-comments-3667533/)
• Cambridge Evening News (http://www.cambridge-news.co.uk/News/Muslims-question-militants-speech-27042012.htm)
• The Jewish Chronicle (http://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/67717/camden-council-giving-al-qaeda-group-freedom-preach)

I don't think it is correct to dismiss this organisation as being an unreliable source when a number of mainstream news agencies have made reference to it.

It should be noted that Green is part of the iERA organisation and this group has been explicitly banned by UCL. Please see for example,

• Guardian (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/mar/15/ucl-bans-islamic-group-over-segregation)
• The Independent (http://www.independent.co.uk/student/news/ucl-bans-islamic-group-after-segregation-row-8536088.html)
• The Daily Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/9996122/Second-university-sounds-alarm-over-segregation-at-Muslim-student-events.html)

The second disputed point is the claim that Green has made a number of anti-Semitic statements. The sources for this are:

• http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/176773#.UxmRefl_vAQ
• http://standforpeace.org.uk/university-of-london-bans-iera-extremists/
• http://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/69540/arsenal-ban-islamist-preacher-emirates-stadium

Israel National News is an established news organisation as is the Jewish Chronicle. Do you not feel that these are reliable? If not, why? RookTaker (talk) 19:43, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

Stand for Peace is not a reliable secondary source under any circumstances on this issue. It is a partisan political organization with a blog, not a neutral news organization. Please see the reliable sources guideline for what is and is not considered a reliable source. In particular, see the self-published sources policy, which states unambiguously, Never use self-published sources as third-party sources about living people, even if the author is an expert, well-known professional researcher, or writer. We don't care how many times they've been quoted elsewhere - they are not an acceptable source on Wikipedia.

The sole source for the claimed statements at issue is a now-deleted video on a personal blog that has been blacklisted by Wikipedia, and it, too, is obviously not a reliable source. Sources quoting other sources are meaningless if the ultimate source is unreliable or nonexistent. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 19:48, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

And yes, the biographies of living persons policy directs that we not use low-quality and dubious sources such as sensationalistic tabloid newspapers as sources. Discuss on the BLPN if you wish - there's a broad, longstanding consensus that tabloids such as The Daily Mail and its competitors are not suitable for contentious claims about living persons. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 19:52, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

Hi NorthBySouthBaranof, thank you for your note.

I'm not convinced about your view on Stand for Peace being a "partisan political organization". As mentioned above, the group defines itself as "an interfaith counter-extremism organisation based in London." However, for now I will take your word for it.

Could you tell me what BLPN is? Also, would it be wrong to add a statement as follows, "According to the Daily Star, Green was banned....". This way the reader can make an informed decision about whether they consider the material to be reliable. Lastly, I mentioned above that Green is part of the iERA organisation and this group has been banned by UCL. Please see for example,

• Guardian (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/mar/15/ucl-bans-islamic-group-over-segregation)
• The Independent (http://www.independent.co.uk/student/news/ucl-bans-islamic-group-after-segregation-row-8536088.html)
• The Daily Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/9996122/Second-university-sounds-alarm-over-segregation-at-Muslim-student-events.html)

None of the above articles make reference to Green explicitly, but do make clear that the organisation (iERA) he belongs to has been banned from UCL. Does this not suffice as an acceptable source? RookTaker (talk) 21:47, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

Then we should mention in the iERA article that it has been banned by UCL. If reliable sources do not believe it important enough to single out Green in this matter, then that suggests it is not of encyclopedic importance.

The BLPN is the Biographies of living persons Noticeboard, which is frequented by users experienced in and sensitive to our policies relating to biographical articles. It is a community clearinghouse for such issues, and there is a discussion on this article underway there. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 23:29, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

External links modified

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Lede section revision

The first sentence of the lead section for this article currently begins with "Abdur Raheem Green is a British Salafi[1] Muslim convert who is known in some Muslim communities for his work in Dawah, both in televised formal settings and informal contexts such as Hyde Park's Speakers Corner."

The lede section should summarize the major facts/qualities/traits of the subject, per Wikipedia guidelines. The "Salafi" description in the lead is worthy of discussion for its inclusion in that section. I have reviewed several reliable source news articles that reference the subject and none of them describe him as a Salafi--nor contain the word "Salafi" for that matter. The one reference that does mention his Salafi views is not enough to influence the lede section in my opinion. This leads to the conclusion that it is not a primary trait of the subject, and is not worthy of inclusion in the lede section. Below is a summary of my findings:

• 1. The Australian - Boys need to repent: Green
  • "THE British Muslim lecturer...Mr Green, a 42-year-old former Catholic who lectures to school groups on behalf of a high-profile mainstream mosque in London...Mr Green, who works as a full-time "outreach officer" for London Central Mosque, lectures on Islam to about 10,000 non-Muslim students a year. The father of 10 describes himself as socially conservative."

• 2. Australia bans Muslim public speaker - The World Today
  • "...a British-born Muslim convert..."

• 3. Montreal News - Islamic group's speech at Concordia University is cancelled]
  • "...the group's [iERA] chairman, Abdurraheem Green"

• 4. The JC - Arsenal ban Islamist preacher from Emirates Stadium
  • "..an Islamist preacher"

• 5. The Telegraph - 'Anti-Semitic’ charity under investigation
  • "Abdurraheem Green, a Muslim convert, who is the charity’s [iERA] chairman."

• 6. Chronic Live - Islamic preacher Abdur Raheem Green banned from St James Park by Newcastle United
  • "An Islamic preacher..."

Please provide any feedback if you disagree with the proposed change. Thank you. --Djrun (talk) 19:50, 8 April 2018 (UTC)

Dear friend Djrun, I have provided four more citations to establish that he is a Salafi (not that I have an axe to grind either way). These are published books, so we can treat them as RS, I believe. I hope they are sufficient to demonstrate his Salafism. If not, I can probably find more. I hope this helps. Best wishes, and thanks for always being a good editor, George Custer's Sabre 02:19, 9 April 2018 (UTC)

Greetings again. Very impressed with the quick research in response to this topic. I had a brief look over the books referenced and they do establish the subject's ideology (if you were to call it that) in question. Thank you for being so proactive. Cheers. Djrun (talk) 04:37, 10 April 2018 (UTC)

Controversies - Portsmouth jihadis

Greetings. The controversy surrounding iERA and the so-called "Portsmouth jihadis" is certainly an appropriate reference for the iERA article on Wikipedia. But how relevant is this reference within the Abdur Raheem Green article? Other than the fact that Mr. Green is the chairman of iERA at the time of the controversy, what other connection does the subject have to the event? The Telegraph article being used as a reference only mentions Green once in regards to being the chairman of iERA and not in regards to the controversy. Organisations subject to any sort of scandal/controversy seem to have that information within the organisation's article page in Wikipedia, rather than on the page of the organisation's members (unless the subject played a central role in the controversy). I am afraid that the Abdur Raheem Green article may result in being inappropriately expended to house irrelevant information on iERA's activities. Please share your thoughts. --Djrun (talk) 00:49, 13 April 2018 (UTC)

I do agree with you, but also comment that iERA and Green are virtually synonymous, both in most people’s minds but also in reality. Just something to think about. Thanks and regards, George Custer's Sabre 08:21, 13 April 2018 (UTC)

The close relationship between iERA and A.R. Green is a good point, of course for Wikipedia's objectivity they are treated as two separate subjects, despite the fact that he is the founder and probably the most prominent spokesperson. I looked into Wikipedia's guidelines on relevancy and Weight today. In my opinion, both favor removing the reference from the AR Green article. This reference appears to fall under "Relevance Level C", and in terms of weight, the fact that the reference takes up an entire paragraph while it has only been reported in one reliable source (unless there are more published articles on the incident--I had trouble finding any more) seems to qualify as undue weight per the guidelines. I'll wait for additional feedback before taking any action, otherwise, this note will serve as justification in the case that the reference is removed. --Djrun (talk) 05:37, 25 June 2018 (UTC)

Dear Djrun, I hope you're fine. I think this is a reasonable position. Might I suggest that you give other editors a week to respond and then, if no-one has, you remove the reference. Best wishes, George Custer's Sabre (talk) 09:32, 25 June 2018 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion:

• AbdurRaheem Green.jpg

You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 16:53, 18 April 2020 (UTC)

Name

What name(s) the cited sources use for Green.
Citation No	Citation	Name
01	Gilham, Jamie; Geaves, Ron, eds. (2017). Victorian Muslim: Abdullah Quilliam and Islam in the West: The Contested Ground of British Islamic Activism. Oxford University Press. p. 142. ISBN 9780190688349.	Abdurraheem Green
02	"About iERA". YouTube.	none
03	Bowen, Innes "Medina in Birmingham, Najaf in Brent: Inside British Islam" "He remained a Salafi but became a popular speaker at events organised by a wide range of Islamic organizations"	Abdur Raheem Green
04	Sadek Hamid (2016), Sufis, Salafis and Islamists: The Contested Ground of British Islamic Activism, I. B. Taurus, p. 56, ISBN 9781788310611	Abdurraheem Green
05	Bangstad, Sindre (2014). Anders Breivik and the Rise of Islamophobia. Zed Books. ISBN 9781783600106.	Abdurraheem Green
06	Meijer, Roel, ed. (2014). Global Salafism: Islam's New Religious Movement. Oxford University Press. pp. 445–447. ISBN 978-0199333431.	Abdur-Raheem Green
07	"Abdurraheem Green". Archived from the original on 25 December 2011. Retrieved 5 April 2012.	Abdurraheem Green
08	"Sheikh Abdur-Raheem Green". Islam Events. Archived from the original on 21 November 2009. Retrieved 28 September 2013.	Abdur Raheem Green and Abdur-Raheem Green
09	Murdianingsih, Dwi (20 October 2011). "Tuhan Bisa Mati? Mendengar Itu Abdur Raheem Green Serasa Ditinju Mike Tyson di Wajah". Republika (in Indonesian). Archived from the original on 12 February 2012. Retrieved 10 April 2012.	Abdur Raheem Green and Anthony Vatswaf Galvin Green
10	Karagiannis, Emmanuel (2 January 2018). The New Political Islam: Human Rights, Democracy, and Justice. ISBN 9780812249729.	Abdurraheem Green
11	"Why I embraced Islam: Interview with Br. Abduraheem Green". Islamic Voice. Archived from the original on 7 April 2013. Retrieved 28 September 2013.	Abdurraheem Green
12	Wilson, Peter (9 December 2006). "Boys need to repent: Green". The Australian. Archived from the original on May 12, 2014. Retrieved 10 April 2012.	Abdur Raheem Green
13	"Australia bans Muslim public speaker". The World Today (Australian radio program). 2005-08-11.	Abdur Raheem Green
14	"Islamic group's speech at Concordia University is cancelled". CTV News. 21 October 2011.	Abdurraheem Green
15	Elgot, Jessica (5 July 2012). "Arsenal ban Islamist preacher from Emirates Stadium". The Jewish Chronicle. Archived from the original on 7 March 2014. Retrieved 7 March 2014.	Abdur Raheem Green
16	"Investigation launched into educational charity". Charity Commission, 8 May 2014. Archived from the original on 27 May 2014. Retrieved 26 May 2014.	none.
17	Mendick, Robert & Lazarus, Ben (24 May 2014). "'Anti-Semitic' charity under investigation". The Daily Telegraph. Archived from the original on 12 August 2016. Retrieved 26 May 2014.	Abdurraheem Green
18	Proctor, Kate (20 May 2015). "Islamic preacher Abdur Raheem Green banned from St James Park by Newcastle United". Evening Chronicle. Archived from the original on 22 May 2015. Retrieved 5 August 2017.	Abdur Raheem Green
EL 1	Official website	Abdurraheem Green
EL 2	Abdur-Raheem Green Lectures on HalalTube	Abdur-Raheem Green
EL 3	Abdur Rahim Green on Peace TV	Abdur Rahim Green
EL 4	Colvin, Mark (11 August 2005). "Question mark over Abdur-Raheem Green's visit to Australia Question mark over Abdur-Raheem Green's visit to Australia". PM on Australian Broadcasting Corporation.	Abdur-Raheem Green
EL 5	Gregory, Angela (9 August 2005). "Muslim convert rejects radical label". The New Zealand Herald.	Abdur Raheem Green
EL 6	Zuarida Mohyin, Susunan (10 June 2010). "Abdur Raheem utamakan dakwah". Utusan Online. Archived from the original on 3 February 2016.	Abdur Raheem Green
EL 7	"UK cleric to clear the air on Islam". The Gleaner. 14 May 2011.	Abdur Raheem Green

In summary the following names are used in cited sources:

• Abdurraheem Green - 8
• Abdur Raheem Green - 7 (one of these also used Abdur-Raheem Green)
• Abdur-Raheem Green - 2 (one of these also used Abdur Raheem Green)
• Anthony Vatswaf Galvin Green - 1 (this was not in English)

If we include the external links, these figures change to:

• Abdurraheem Green - 9
• Abdur Raheem Green - 10 (one of these also used Abdur-Raheem Green)
• Abdur-Raheem Green - 4 (one of these also used Abdur Raheem Green)
• Abdur Rahim Green - 1
• Anthony Vatswaf Galvin Green - 1 (this was not in English)

-- Toddy1 (talk) 10:34, 18 July 2021 (UTC) updated -- Toddy1 (talk) 11:35, 18 July 2021 (UTC)

According to the accounts submitted by iERA to the Charity Commission, his name is Anthony W G Green.

The Charity Commission lists four trustees for IERA, where he is named Anthony Waclaw Green. -- Toddy1 (talk) 14:55, 18 July 2021 (UTC)

According to Companies House, he is Anthony Waclaw Gavin Green, born September 1964.

References

Course Hero as a source

A user (now blocked) posted a citation to Course Hero.^{17:41, 20 July 2021}

• "Abdurraheem Green - Early life". Course Hero. Retrieved 20 July 2021.{{cite web}}: CS1 maint: url-status (link)

There was an archived post by @David Eppstein: at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 272#Semantic Scholar that talked about Course Hero:

"CourseHero appears to be in business despite having a business model centered around encouraging students to upload course notes and exams in frequent violation of wishes of the copyright owners (faculty members and universities); I would not ever link to them from here."

This suggests that we should remove this citation. The information it is cited for has another source.-- Toddy1 (talk) 13:07, 21 July 2021 (UTC)