Talk:Aan de Poel

NPOV

• The is an article with numerous problems. Including an overtly promotional tone, recent-ism
• Until:
  • peacock terminology iwas removed
  • Poor English is grammar iwas corrected (e.g use of Determiners, Capitalization)
  • Overcitation of a single fact etc.

this article is in violation of WP:NPOV and represents an single editor's POV.

• Also to satisfy WP:V I am requesting that all references to foreign languages sources have brief translations appended BO | Talk 19:22, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

I have reverted your vandalistic edits. You can use Google Translate to get a translation of all Dutch sources. I'm not required to supply these summaries. Again, Google Translate is reliable enough. The Banner talk 19:56, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

To make it clear:

1. every detail in this article is backed up by sources, just to avoid puffery or advertising.
2. you claim to correct grammar, but in effect you are introducing grammar mistakes: double capitals, was later awardes a second stars
3. I guess you have no understanding of Michelin stars, so I suggest you start reading that link
4. Restaurants get the Michelin stars awarded every year. The tastes Michelin has on offer are zero stars (for most restaurants), one star (, not too many restaurants), two stars (, a few restaurants) or three stars (, rare). So they can get one, two or three stars.
5. You don't explain why the article is POV, as every fact can be checked in the sources provided.
6. And yes, I forgot a reference at food type. But do you want a references for really every fact? I can do that if you want! But you can also switch on Google Translate and read the sources.
7. It is possible that the article suffers about recentism. To put that into perspective: the restaurant also suffers from recentism. I can't help it that the restaurant is only opened, as newly built restaurant, in 2007. And please don't blame me for the fact the Michelin awarded them one star in 2009, 2010, 2011 and 2012 and only as recent as October 2012 awarded them two stars for 2013. Sorry, but the history only starts in 2007.
8. Why is this method of working suddenly not ok? Why did nobody else complain over the 168 articles I wrote earlier in this style?
9. For your information: Google Translate can also translate from Dutch to Hungarian.

I hope the situation is clear now. The Banner talk 20:21, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

If a {{CN}} edit is vandalism why did you immediately provide a citation? Your actions contradict your own claims. Also if you think I misunderstand the star system using rollback is out of place. It should only be used to revert vandalism. Reverting good faith work is abuse of prestige and clearly an against WP:Civility. Since you ask asking about your method of work I'll WP:AGF one last time and lay it out

• The presence of many sources helps with WP:V but it does little to establish WP:NPOV, the only way to get that is to work it out via consensus.
• Th most significant outstanding issue IMO an overstated positive sentiment in this article. (What use are WP articles on restaurants if all they do is say: this is a most wonderful restaurant ever? )
• The excessive sentiment, the poor grammar and the excessive citation and the aggressive editing and cynical edit comments are all indicative of WP:COI editing which I decided to test by toning down the sentiment - as I explained above.
• Repeated incivility both on my user page following NPP cleanup as well as rollback and in edit comment of followup WP:GF edits are unacceptable

As you have silenced the only other voice the NPOV issue remain.

If you are willing to cooperate I will attempt to remove them as you clearly are not able to do this yourself.

Regarding your kind offer about my using Google translate, unfortunately Google is not very good and makes too many mistakes. It is only good enough to get a general picture. But is of no use for checking facts. What I requested is to add a translated snippet to the non English citations per the norm when WP:V is in doubt. Also no need to translate all the citations - just one per fact. Thanks BO | Talk 21:32, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

I have requested some extra eyes] at Wikiproject Food and Drink.

I don't see why an article is POV as the only thing I give in the article are plain facts. No opinions whatsoever. Or is your knowledge of Michelinstars really that bad that you refuse a name two starred restaurant a quality restaurant?

About the COI. Yes, I am Dutch. But just as you, I am an expat and I live in Ireland for the last (almost) seven years. I have never visited a Michelin starred restaurant in the Netherlands and here in Ireland only two former Michelin starred restaurants.

Google Translate is good enough to give you an idea of what the source contains. Not in perfect Hungarian, but the sources mentioned in László Kovács (writer) were quite understandable to me (and I did not request a translated summary).

And because of you aggressive and unexplained tagging, your bad grammar and your accusations, I don't take you serious anymore. Sorry. The Banner talk 22:16, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

My work here has not been aggressive only yours - I have reverted 0 of your edits. You have been abusing your rollback privileges and accused me of vandalism and specifically asked what your policy infractions have been. I have reverted hundreds of cases of vandalism and none of it looks like what is going on here. I have gone to great lengths to explained the tag placed on the page yet you taking. Refusing to get it is also a breach of behavior. Refusing to cooperate with verification of basic facts when you Dutch is your native language indicates you are seeking to escalate. I suggest that you avoid further power plays such as canvassing and ask help from a third opinion Wikipidian and your cronies since that is not the way to resolve a WP:NPOV issue. BO | Talk 23:36, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

abusing your rollback privileges, a breach of behavior, seeking to escalate, power plays, canvassing. In my experience: the bigger the words, the lesser the content.

And please, read Wikipedia:Canvassing as I have only filed a request for extra eyes at the fore-mentioned Wikiproject. Not one more. The Banner talk 23:55, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

Your signature far exceeds the length mandated by policy - and as such is a marker of flammery . While you consider how to best trim it down why not add the one sentence xlation of the cited text - you know you want to BO | Talk 00:31, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

You are kidding, I hope?

But as a sign of good will, I will change "quality restaurant" into "fine dining restaurant", if that makes you happy. The Banner talk 00:43, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

I think a French cuisine restaurant is both factual and devoid of sentiment - after all this article unduly stresses the quality ratings of the restaurant at the cost of avoiding any mention of cooking, food, the menu, service, specialties, tradition and amenities. It is unfortunate that you are writing about a venue that you have never been too, but I will not be surprised that you could find some info on the chef as it would be of some interest (work/ownership in other restaurants, credentials, school and personal background). Now I admit that made a typo before - but you can check my record and see that I do take great pains to patch things up once I see that I have created some kind of problem. Regarding your WP:signature#length - I was not seriously requesting that you change it - I hope some humor might diffuse this discussion. BO | Talk 15:17, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

If you had read the link Michelin star, you could have seen that the star are awarded for the quality of the food served. And that was just the part that you regarded POV... The Banner talk 15:24, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

Not all Fine dining restaurants serve French food. Even Aan de Poel serves French and international styled food, so French cuisine is utterly wrong. The Banner talk 15:50, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

• Comment: this dispute reminds me of a similar one raised by the same User:Oren Bochman with similar lame accusations of NPOV failure, COI, use of misleading sentences and even more that ended in a glorious AfD. About the grammar, the sentence "Poor English is grammar is corrected" is enlightening: with respect, if the article needs to be fixed, it should be fixed by someone else with enough English skills. About the rest, if Oren Bochman wants to be taken seriously, he should provide exemples of NPOV and evidences of conflict of interests before the related accusations, otherwise his remarks will be fully ignored as pointy. Cavarrone (talk) 09:00, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

Is and Was

I understand your point about rating being current - but the correct way to report it is in the past tense. I.E.

• "It is a quality restaurant that was awarded one Michelin star for the period 2009-2012 and two Michelin stars for 2013. " or
• "It is a quality restaurant that has been awarded one Michelin star for the period 2009-2012 and two Michelin stars for 2013. or
• "It is a quality restaurant that was awarded one Michelin star for the period 2009-2012 and currently for 2003 has a two Michelin stars"

the problem is that is and awarded do not match in tense. However we can ask a more professional CE to review this point. Also if you agree to replace quality restaurant with French cuisine restaurant please do so and if not let me know why. BO | Talk 16:32, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

No, I will not replace quality restaurant by the wrong French cuisine restaurant. I will replace it by fine dining restaurant. The Banner talk 19:43, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

Instead of your cripple style, I have cut the sentence in two to solve your headaches. I have also remove to misleading external links to book covers. If it was a link to the information covered, okay. But a link to a book cover is useless. The Banner talk 19:55, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

I looked at fine dining restaurant and I am now convinced it is o.k. - so kudos - we have resolved the NPOV issue.

Regarding the split sentences - The first is fine but IMHO the second sentence is still malformed. Don't blame me for English grammar - I did not invent it - I think it was the Roman, Norse and French invasions of the England that are to blame and I don't come from that part of the world. Anyhow I'll consult with a member of the Guild of Copy Editors and see what he says.

Please explain how a link to a page with a picture and bibliographical information of the book is misleading?

I noticed that the Google and Amazon pages for the ISBNs contain additional bibliographical which is at odds with the details in the book citations up to you if you want to correct it - I don't own a copy and I am tiered if getting reverted. We can tag the article for inconsistent citing style - for future reference if you prefer.

You just said that the restaurant is not a French cuisine restaurant but you also put in the info box that is a French cuisine restaurant together with a dutch language source! So I am requesting you provide brief translations to some of the sources notes to the references per WP:NOENG which best explains why and how. Also consider translating the titles of the Dutch and French sources - I recommend this since most of the citations in this articles seem to have been copy pasted from other articles since their access dates clearly predate the date of the creation of this article by two or more months. The citations templates support title translation. And please don't take this the wrong way I am not accusing you of anything - even admins make mistakes with foreign language sources.

I think that these are all the outstanding issues at this point. Cheers BO | Talk 03:45, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

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