Talk:27 Club

Reverting History and Identified Members edits

@Binksternet I don't understand your revert edit summaries. Please elaborate on the rationale for reverting 1) my edit of the History section that was under active discussion here between me and the other editor, 2) my edit of the members list which has valid references? — Goffman82 (talk) 08:44, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

You are referring to this edit of mine, with the edit summary of "the source says some people were in the 27 Club, and some other people were not". I thought that was very clear. The mentalfloss source starts by saying some people are in the 27 Club, then it says that other people have also died at age 27. It DOES NOT say that these people are also in the Club. That's why I removed Pope John XII, etc. Binksternet (talk) 20:23, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

I think the article is actually a bit ambiguous on this point. It says that "Club 27 is headlined by..." the famous musicians, but I think there's a strong implication that the others named are also to be considered in said Club, only that they're not the headliners. This sort of analysis is a bit on the silly side anyway, given that the Club isn't a real thing anyway. But I'd be inclined to include those listed myself.  — Amakuru (talk) 21:08, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

Agreed. My reply below is in response to Binksternet's message above. — Goffman82 (talk) 06:12, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

That's an extremely narrow reading of the source:

On Saturday, Amy Winehouse passed away and became the latest member of Club 27—an exclusive club you don’t want to be in. Club 27 is headlined by musicians Jimi Hendrix, Janis Joplin, Jim Morrison, Kurt Cobain, and Brian Jones, who all died of a drug overdose, suicide, or accident at that young age. But the musically inclined aren't the only ones who die at 27. Here are 10 other people who didn’t live to see 28.

I think it's reasonable to assume that the article's author has the same definition of Club membership as the one stated in the lead of 27 Club: celebrities who die at 27. It's hard to imagine they decided to write an article about the 27 Club simply to inform us about 10 famous people who died at 27 who are not members for unspecified reasons. — Goffman82 (talk) 22:01, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

Agreed, and I think this illustrates the problem with reliable sources forming the basis of who should be in a list. Some reliable sources are free and easy about including other people, which is fine, but we really should be asking; What does including all these people add to the article? Most of the time the answer would be; "Nothing." We do not need an every growing list of people matching an increasingly loose definition, in the opinion of maybe one source, to fully illustrate to the reader what the "27 Club" is. It's not as if the concept is difficult to grasp, the reader does not need dozens of examples to get the idea. And if the reader then wishes to decide that someone, who otherwise is not in the list, because no reliable source has mentioned them, is a member, well, who cares? There is no official factual list, there is no standing that can be falsely appropriated by a "false" member. --Escape Orbit ^(Talk) 11:14, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

Agreed. While I continue to follow the existing inclusion criteria, I strongly agree that they need to be updated. — Goffman82 (talk) 07:50, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

Since no one else has spoken up in favor of this revert, I'm going to reinstate the list additions for now. @Binksternet you haven't provided a rationale for reverting my edit of the History section that was under active discussion here between me and another editor. Is there one? — Goffman82 (talk) 07:39, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

I did indeed provide a rationale for removing the names you added. I noted that the mentalfloss source did not explicitly place the additional names in the 27 Club. Failed verification is the problem here. Binksternet (talk) 15:46, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

You stated this, but from the comments in this section so far, nobody here agrees with you. The names are in an article about the 27 club, and the article doesn't say they're not in the club (as if that even means anything anyway) so they are valid entries.  — Amakuru (talk) 17:03, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

In my view, the Mental Floss article does not say that those people are members of the 27 Club. In fact, the article strongly implies that only rock musicians are club members. — Mudwater ^(Talk) 02:21, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

On reading the source more carefully: being pedantic (as we must) the mentalfloss source does not say these people are in Club 27. Indeed, it could be read that it is actually saying that they are not. As I said above, this issue just illustrates the almost arbitrary nature of our inclusion criteria. A slight rephrasing by one writer (Stacy Conradt in this case) can change if someone is in or out.

I'd also re-emphasis; the inclusion of these people does not add one iota of value to the article, or makes the slightest difference to how these people are regarded. --Escape Orbit ^(Talk) 16:04, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

At this point in the discussion it looks like there is no consensus to keep the mentalfloss.com source and its unusual list of people who died at age 27, including a pope. Goffman82 and Amakuru want to keep it, Escape_Orbit changed from keep to neutral, possibly leaning remove. Mudwater and I are favoring remove. When discussion is at an impasse, disputed text should stay out of the article per WP:ONUS. Note that Goffman82 has recently expressed a wish to tighten the inclusion criteria,[1] which would certainly result in the Mental Floss names going away. Binksternet (talk) 01:56, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

I've just removed some entries sources to a 'Listverse' source on similar grounds; poor quality source, source just says they are notable deaths, not that they are club members. What is particularly distinguishing is that two of these people were not notable prior to their death, they were notable after. That does not fit with the criteria described at the top of the article. --Escape Orbit ^(Talk) 10:00, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

Andy Bowen (May 3, 1867 – December 15, 1894) was an American lightweight boxer best known for fighting the world's longest boxing match. He died at the age of 27. Would he meet the criteria to be added to this list? Just a thought. 129.112.109.41 (talk) 20:19, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

10,000 days

I don't know if it's significant, but your 10,000th day of life happens when you're 27.JohnMason (talk) 17:28, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

It's only significant if WP:SECONDARY sources mention it. Binksternet (talk) 20:54, 12 July 2024 (UTC)