Talk:2024 Venezuelan political crisis

TOC reorganization

Moved from Talk:2024 Venezuelan presidential election

Dustfreeworld, I edit conflicted with you, so checking in before continuing. This reorganization of the article sections

1. places the cyberattack allegations below the content about Freddy Superlano, which refers to the previous allegations of a cyberattack, creating a flow problem, and
2. obscures the cyberattack allegation as a fourth-level heading, when that is a core element of the Maduro position on why they didn't release the election tallies, and
3. risks elevating in unitiated readers' minds the content in the charges section as somehow more valid than that in the allegations sections, when the charges against the opposition, journalists, etc have no more basis in evidence than the allegations.

I was also in the midst of updating the negotiating strategies and proposals and we edit conflicted, so it is probably best now that I wait to continue adding new content until we can settle on a TOC, as I'm unsure now where to add the new content.

Would you be amenable to returning the TOC to where it was, letting me finish today's additions with new sources coming out post-17 August protest, and then discussing any TOC reorganization after updated content is in?

Please let me know so we don't edit conflict as I continue updating; I'll wait. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:32, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

I’ve restored the page to the version you mentioned. I’m afraid some of your edits are still lost though. I don’t have a strong opinion on the TOC. The reason I changed it is that I find it somewhat too complex and want to make it more simple. Just do whatever you want, it doesn’t matter. --Dustfreeworld (talk) 17:55, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

Thanks so much, Dustfreeworld. No worries about any lost pieces, as I will start over anyway with your improvements in mind. I lost my train of thought (that train goes through too many open tabs), and now have to run out for several errands, so will have to return to it in a few hours. Thanks again, more later, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:01, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

Sources for negotiations expansion

Saving this bit as a reminder of where I left off ... SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:04, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

• Lejtman, Roman (18 August 2024). "EEUU analiza sanciones contra la dictadura si Maduro no cede la presidencia de Venezuela y continúa con la represión ilegal" [US considers sanctions against the dictatorship if Maduro does not give up the presidency of Venezuela and continues with illegal repression]. Infobae (in Spanish). Retrieved 18 August 2024.
• Delgado, Antonio Maria (5 August 2024). "This man holds the Venezuelan regime together. Here's why Maduro doesn't trust him". Miami Herald. Retrieved 18 August 2024.
• DeYoung, Karen; Schmidt, Samantha (10 August 2024). "Amid Venezuela tumult, U.S. wants Latin American countries to lead in finding a solution". The Washington Post. ProQuest 3091217702. Retrieved 18 August 2024.
• Gámez Torres, Nora (15 August 2023). "White House walks back Biden's comments on new elections in Venezuela". Miami Herald. Retrieved 18 August 2023.
• Nicas, Jack (4 August 2024). "How Could Maduro's Reign in Venezuela End?". The New York Times. Archived from the original on 4 August 2024. Retrieved 18 August 2024.
• Padgett, Tim (7 Aug 2024). "Maduro stole Venezuela's election. Can only the military get it back?". WLRN Pubic Radio and Television. Retrieved 18 Aug 2024.

SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:21, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

"Will Maduro negotiate a transfer of power? And four other questions about Venezuela's political crisis". Atlantic Council. 15 August 2024. Retrieved 20 August 2024. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:10, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

Goodman, Joshua (21 August 2024). "Latin American effort to mediate Venezuela standoff loses steam as Maduro consolidates rule". ABC News. Associated Press. Retrieved 27 August 2024. "los tres amigos". SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:32, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

 Done Did all I can do here for now; ran out of steam. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:25, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

New law on NGOs

Moved from Talk:2024 Venezuelan presidential election

Not sure yet where to work this one in, part of the aftermath and big picture, saving it here:

• Venezuela legislators approve law to regulate NGOs, Reuters

SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:27, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

OK, I'm confused about whether this new law incorporated parts of the April bill, Law against Fascism, Neofascism and Similar Expressions. Telesur (deprecated) seems to imply it did; google "Venezuela Passes Second Discussion on the Law on NGO Funding", see last paragraph. And France 24 refers to a "package of laws". SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:05, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

Then, this from Cuba. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:08, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

@Kingsif and ReyHahn: this is an area where, unfortunately, the editor who could resolve the question is topic banned. Are you able to round up anyone who might clarify? I waded into the es.wikipedia recently only to find it a very dreadful place, determined to copy content I wrote all over the place without attribution, yet correct me on edits I didn't make wrt decimal points and percentage signs, so not going there anymore. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:26, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

I'll look into it. Kingsif (talk) 17:50, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

From what I have gathered in the immediate, it is not the same law. It is, formally, Ley de fiscalización, regularización, actuación y financiamiento de las organizaciones no gubernamentales y afines. It includes a clause(?) that bans "promover el fascismo, la intolerancia o el odio", similar wording to the Law against Fascism. The basis of the NGOs law is that NGOs typically rely on funding and aid from countries that Maduro doesn't like, nor does he like the level of political influence some NGOs have, so any generic reason to shut them down is being thrown into it. It does look like the two laws may be part of a 'series' of laws with purpose to limit expression and freedoms - they're in the process of discussing a new law against "cyberfascism", which seems to be aimed at shutting down social media. Without looking at the full text, I don't think we know if it uses the exact parts of the Law against Fascism. Kingsif (talk) 18:02, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

EFE also mentions at the end that the Law against Fascism is still being discussed while the one regulating NGOs has quickly passed, and that there may be other similar laws in the pipeline. Kingsif (talk) 18:14, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

That one (EFE) seems to sum it up; thanks Kingsif! SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:59, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

Venezuelan parliament delays debate on 'fascism' law, AFP. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:10, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

 Done SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:56, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

Article name

I don't see sources refer to this as a crisis, although it may be part of a broader crisis. Perhaps 2024 Venezuelan election dispute or something similar might be better.TFD (talk) 02:18, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

A few of the many sources referring to it as a crisis are attached to the first sentence; there are many more. The article covers more than the vote tally dispute, and the crisis extends beyond the results of the election. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:11, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

There don't seem to be many. Last time, if IIRC, the U.S. said that the election was illegitimate and therefore the presidency passed to Juan Guaido. But this time, Maduro was not recognized as the legitimate president to begin with. Isn't this just another chapter in claims of Maduro's illegitimacy?

Many Communist countries held regular elections that the U.S. refused to recognize as democratic. Could all these elections be described as crises? TFD (talk) 03:41, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

It's unclear why you find few sources; I come up with pages of them on a Google search. Along with the three listed in the first line, France24, WAPO, Al Jazeera, BBC, Foreign Policy PBS, another Reuters, another AP and pages more. Nor do I understand why the US stance under a different administration in a different situation are relevant to this situation; the Biden administration doesn't seem to be very engaged, or at times, even aware.

Many countries, NGOs and reliable sources who have condemned the repression beyond the issues with the vote tallies seem to think that what eight million and growing Venezuelans outside of Venezuela and the countries affected by receiving refugees, along with those arrested and imprisoned within Venezuela, constitute a crisis. As the NYT said, "The announcement plunged Venezuela into a political crisis that has claimed at least 22 lives in violent demonstrations, led to the jailing of more than 2,000 people and provoked global denunciation."

I'm unclear how limiting this article to an election "dispute" (which is territory covered in the election article) will better describe issues occurring like the repression of Operation Tun Tun or the censorship or the moves to enact laws to limit freedoms, etc. But let's get fresh opinions from everyone who helped come up with this article name. @Boud, CoryGlee, CVDX, David O. Johnson, Dustfreeworld, Kingsif, Newslinger, ReyHahn, and Wilfredor: SandyGeorgia (Talk) 04:45, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

Adding a source today: WSJ 22 Aug: TSJ declares Maduro winner "deepening the country's political crisis". SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:48, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

Le Monde, post-election crisis. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:57, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

Anything can be called a crisis, the question is whether this is how one would normally describe it. For example, one could call the Attempts to overturn the 2020 United States presidential election a crisis. Supporters of the defeated candidate attempted to overthrow the U.S. government in a coup and replace it with a fascist dictatorship, according to one side. The Democrats stole the election in order to establish socialism, according to the other. Certainly as the country's elected representatives feared for their lives as insurgents constructed a makeshift gallows and stormed the Capitol, it was a crisis. TFD (talk) 17:13, 24 August 2024 (UTC)

I don't think we can call this an "Attempts to overturn" article, as the fraud is well-documented and accepted in the vast preponderance of reliable sources, and the implications and consequences and after effects go well beyond the actual vote tallies. We talked for weeks about how to name this article; the main article is at 10,000 words, and there is much still to be built here. I recognize the name may need to change down the road, but absent a workable proposal, and after weeks of discussing it over there, there's an article to write, and a better name may eventually appear. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:55, 24 August 2024 (UTC)

I suggested aftermath in my comments below. I don't see that it matters whether the count was accurate or not, the results have been confirmed by the courts. Gore had more votes than Bush in Florida in 2000, but we don't call it a crisis. TFD (talk) 03:44, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

Setting aside that presidential elections in the US are decided by the electoral college, not popular vote, there are few similarities between the US Supreme Court case and the situation in Venezuela. In the US instance, there weren't more than 2,000 arrests and disappearances, more than two dozen deaths, broken diplomatic relations and trade between multiple countries, multiple allies involved in attempting to negotiate a peaceful transfer of power, closed borders, voided passports, censored websites and press, detained journalists, minors charged with terrorism and detained without legal representations as two prisons are rehabilitated to house more of same, a crackdown on dissent described by sources as brutal, repressive and unprecedented, or the world's largest refugee crisis-- and that's not all this article deals with. To not describe that as some form of crisis (Guardian, AFP El Pais MercoPress) would be misleading; whether we decide on post-electoral or political or something else, it's not the common and usual "aftermath" of an election. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:06, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

Infobae 27 Aug. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 12:11, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

Miami Herald. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:43, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

Catholic News Agency, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:25, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

Diario Las Americas. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 05:50, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

BBC. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:26, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

NTN24 SandyGeorgia (Talk) 09:12, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

La Nacion SandyGeorgia (Talk) 11:00, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

The Guardian. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:28, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

Infobae, again, 3 September. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:45, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

I think we lack a common name yet, but let's wait a bit. Election dispute is indeed a good name but crisis is also valid. There are many chapters already called Venezuelan crisis, this is just another one of them, I do not see a problem with the current title. Also it seems to be backed by sources.--ReyHahn (talk) 08:34, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

Hi my friends, I will humbly opine, but I hate arguments (just like Toy Story's Rex :P). If we regressed in time, the crisis with Guaidó started in January, when he didn't recognize Maduro's inauguration. Perhaps, we could wait with a stand-by name for the article until January, when I'm sure that González will refuse to concede and recognize. CoryGlee (talk) 10:39, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

I prefer to call it a crisis because this situation tends to extend beyond the election. Wilfredor (talk) 11:52, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

Isn't a crisis by definition short-lived? TFD (talk) 17:14, 24 August 2024 (UTC)

If it is, then crisis in Venezuela has a 14-year problem. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:18, 24 August 2024 (UTC)

El Diario just called it a "post-electoral" crisis. TFD, in a fast-moving event, which much still to come, in the absence of a concrete proposal for a better name, would you mind holding off for a few days to weeks, so focus can be on building content for now? How short- or long-lived this particular aspect is remains to be seen. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:22, 24 August 2024 (UTC)

Of course one can find sources that use the term crisis, as I mentioned, but the great majority of sources do not, including the signers of the Joint Statement on Venezuela Election.[1] The BBC for example refers to it as an election dispute.[2]

The term crisis is related to the word critical, which is in contrast to chronic. The Chavistas have governed for 25 years Every election since 1999 has been challenged by the opposition, as have most actions of the government. It doesn't mean that everything is a crisis.

The reason there the aftermath of the last election was considered a crisis was that reasonable people believed the government was on the verge of collapse. The crisis ended or was averted when Juan Guaido failed to gain military support either in Venezuela or from the U.S.

At this point, there is no reasonable expectation Maduro will be forced to resign. That could change in which case the term crisis would be more appropriate. TFD (talk) 21:06, 24 August 2024 (UTC)

I still don't know where that leaves us, but having some article under some name which might later change is better than a 14,000-word alternate back at the main election article.

I don't see US documents as being highly relevant as the US doesn't seem to be a major player, and the US president doesn't seem to know what's going on, so we're seeing statements from low-level officials.

I don't think (not sure) you're suggesting this scenario is like any of the previous under chavismo, where evidence of the fraud was not adequately gathered, or was ignored. The BBC article you reference is a week old and the situation has evolved; are you suggesting everything in the TOC, and the TO DO list below--things that are about more than the election dispute--go elsewhere, and if so where?

I'd rather be spending time building content to help see what might be an eventual name, should a change be needed, and still think this the best name we've got as the situation stands. I've not seen a workable alternate. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:26, 24 August 2024 (UTC)

The joint statement was signed by the EU, UK, Canada and all the usual U.S. allies. The fact that U.S. response has been muted is the reason it hasn't tipped into a crisis. But the U.S. and its allies have already impounded Venezuelan property and implemented sanctions. I think the title of "Aftermath of the 2024 Venezuelan presidential election" would be more descriptive. TFD (talk) 23:59, 24 August 2024 (UTC)

Besides that the territory covered here is a crisis by whatever name, "Aftermath" feels considerably diluted, and has more of the problem you state "Crisis" does: almost no sources use it. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:09, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

Al jazeera,[3] CBC,[4] Reuters,[5] Bloomberg,[6] and many other sources use the term aftermath. There isn't a common name and therefore we should use the most descriptive term. I prefer understatement to overstatement. TFD (talk) 02:32, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

Those are the same few I found (noting that both Al jazeera and Reuters are also on the list of sources that call it is a Crisis). And then we have a combo: Aftermath called a Crisis from LatinAmerican Post. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 12:01, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

Wall Street Journal, aftermath. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:47, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

TO DO

1. #Freedom House open letter Have never found a secondary source on this, UNDUE. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:15, 4 September 2024 (UTC)
2. #New law on NGOs SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:56, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
3. Expand Public-sector employees dismissed (also Longo case, journalists) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:21, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
4. Expand Passports voided Done, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:06, 24 August 2024 (UTC)
5. Finish re-write of transition proposals, started at #Sources for negotiations expansion Ran out of steam, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:54, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
6. Add detention of Ana Carolina Guaita and update other journalists and politicians detained (don't miss blackmail in asking she be exchanged for her father) – ABC.es NTN24 NTN24

   Another female journalist, Carmela Longo Reuters Le Monde Reuters El Diario Infobae

   Add to overall censorship and arrests of journalists: Guardian

   Radio NTN24

7. Expand Tun Tun extortion – NTN24 Added at Tun Tun article, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:23, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
8. Beef up Crackdown section to mention most arrested from slums – eg NewLine and others
9. Complete reactions to TSJ (UN, OAS, EU etc) – ElDiario ElDiario2 Infobae Infobae ElDiario ex-pres Bolivia NTN24 Done, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:47, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
10. Minors accused of terrorism – WAPO El Diario
11. Create Caryslia Rodríguez – NTN24 and explain past Chavismo/PSUV conflict of interest; also failure to recuse NTN24 Done, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:53, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
12. Explain composition and brief history of TSJ – ES.wiki NTN24 and less reliable but useful background at Ultimas Noticias and Caracas Chronicles
13. Expand Censorship, X stil blocked etc. – NTN24 [7]
14. Diplomatic relations – Infobae Too tangential, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:14, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

    Honduras AFP SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:47, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

15. Edni Lopez disappearance AP and more
16. Isturiz El Diario
17. HRW letter: Infobae HRW SandyGeorgia (Talk) 12:18, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
18. Black book of the 2024 dictatorship Infobae SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:14, 4 September 2024 (UTC)
19. Diplomatic Infobae SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:25, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

    IDEA to CPI: [8] Argentina joins calls for CPI arrest warrant:[9] Lulu disapponted: [10] Spain: [11] Embassy surrounded: BBC [12] Revokes Brazil custody: Reuters AP [13] Violates Asylum treaty: [14] Brazil says it will continue: [15] SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:58, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

20. Briceño and Dueñez BBC [16] [17] tiugj

SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:35, 24 August 2024 (UTC)

Merge with "2024 Venezuelan protests"

Do you think this and 2024 Venezuelan protests page should be merged as one? Theasiancowboy (talk) 10:32, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

No; see summary style. Like many other sub-articles, the protests are one stand-alone, 3,500-word aspect of the overall crisis, and the content is summarized back to here. This article is already at 4,500 words of readable prose, and growing; merging the two to one would result in a WP:SIZE problem. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:45, 25 August 2024 (UTC)