Talk:2023 Tel Aviv car-ramming

Not IP conflict

An Arab Israeli citizen attack on foreign tourists in Israel is not part of the IP conflict. Also it has nothing to do with Hamra incident (synthesis) or anything that happened a year ago (more synthesis). Tagging article. Selfstudier (talk) 08:49, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

True, but it's part of the Arab–Israeli conflict because it was an attack in Israel by an Arab. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 10:18, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

It's edge case because its attack (if deliberate) on non Israeli/Palestinian by an Israeli (regardless whether Arab, we don't single out Jews, do we?). Otherwise we can start including every attack by Israeli police on any Arab in Israel. Still, if you want to include it, I won't object, I'll add the edit notice (I was mainly objecting to the linking of this article at Timeline of the Israeli–Palestinian conflict in 2023 and ascribing a motive Palestinian political violence which is evidently incorrect (latter has been fixed by another editor). Selfstudier (talk) 10:29, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

It shouldn't be in the Prominent terrorist attacks against Israelis in the 2020s template because all the victims were foreigners. The mainstream national & international media describe it as an attack. The driver was killed by police at the scene, so we don't know his motive or if he was deliberately targeting foreigners/Westerners. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 12:11, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

Please go and watch the security video on the Tel Aviv promenade. The attacker is clearly seen accelerating to full speed on the sidewalk! This is a terrorist attack.

whether or not this was coordinated is not known, only the Israeli security forces know the situation. Peter39c (talk) 19:45, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

Your personal interpretation of the situation is of no interest. Selfstudier (talk) 19:49, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

Sorry I don't understand but the background part must be put and also the references to the claim. Hamas and Islamic Jihad claimed Tel Aviv attack. There are reliable sources, written on Repubblica.it Peter39c (talk) 19:56, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

You don't like coincidences, that's fine but on April 7, 2022 there was another attack in Tel Aviv. A really strange coincidence. Peter39c (talk) 19:58, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

@Peter39c: You don't like coincidences is a nonsensical statement. If you are implying your edits were reverted because there was a coincidence involved, you're wrong. They were reverted because your assertions were yours, rather than claims or facts reported in reliable sources. You must provide sources for those claims. Reporting in other sources—including the Times of Israel and BBC-make no mention of the claims of responsibility. ~ Pbritti (talk) 20:01, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

https://www.repubblica.it/esteri/2023/04/07/news/israele_attentato_tel_aviv_spari_auto_lungomare_morto_feriti-395347071/

In the article he says that Hamas and Islamic Jihad claimed Tel Aviv attack Peter39c (talk) 20:05, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

You are not convinced of the article and then I'll just put the background with the events that happened before. Peter39c (talk) 20:07, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

@Peter39c: I recommend you avoid editing the article until your proposed changes gain a consensus from other editors. Up through now, they have all violated policy in one way or another; you could inadvertently violate WP:1R again if you aren't cautious. ~ Pbritti (talk) 20:12, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

Then I can enter this:

== Backgrounds ==

See also: 2023 Al-Aqsa clashes and 2023 Israel–Lebanon shellings

or not good?

do you agree? Peter39c (talk) 20:17, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

on motivation what do we put nothing? Peter39c (talk) 20:19, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

I await your responses on this. Peter39c (talk) 20:25, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

Two editors have put nothing (and another has agreed it should be nothing), then there is no consensus for such an edit.

One must also avoid drawing connections between events as if they were related, just because something else happened the day before, hours later or the previous year does not mean that there is necessarily a causal connection between them. One would need a reliable source stipulating that there was a connection else it is just synthesis. Selfstudier (talk) 22:44, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

https://www.timesofisrael.com/initial-autopsy-of-alleged-tel-aviv-attacker-said-to-point-to-terror-motive/

There are updates.

I do not make any changes without consent. Peter39c (talk) 00:30, 10 April 2023 (UTC)

I don't understand why you also want to remove it from the article Timeline of the Israeli–Palestinian conflict in 2023

this article should be included, that of the two girls killed in the West Bank and a reference to the rockets fired from Gaza. Peter39c (talk) 00:42, 10 April 2023 (UTC)

I don't understand why you also want to remove it from the article Timeline of the Israeli–Palestinian conflict in 2023 Because you included this attack as 'main' for a different incident. This attack is not IP, only AI (per discussion above).

the two girls killed in the West Bank This is already included at 7 April. When an article is published for that incident, it will be the 'main'. Selfstudier (talk) 07:52, 10 April 2023 (UTC)

Murders of Lucy, Maia and Rina Dee Jim Michael 2 (talk) 20:08, 10 April 2023 (UTC)

Neutrality tag

There's obviously a lot of bandwagon labelling of this as a terror attack on the back of dubiously pre-emptive statements from the police and foreign ministry pre-investigation - an investigation that will be made all the harder by the extrajudicial field execution of the driver. Alongside the general jumping-the-gun conclusions, the page, at the time of this tagging, contains no mention of the protestations of the driver's brother that this was an accident, or any of the other details that balance the otherwise one-sided official narrative. Iskandar323 (talk) 09:07, 10 April 2023 (UTC)

I did add a bit about the brother. One problem with this event was that the official story kept changing, there was a gun so it was a shooting, then there wasn't a gun, there was a toy gun, some video is not released and not other. Perhaps the investigation will produce something. Selfstudier (talk) 10:22, 10 April 2023 (UTC)

Yes, almost the perfect encapsulation of why WP:NOTNEWS exists overall. There's now been an autopsy that says that the Italian chap, who the first reports said was shot, was not shot. [1] Other explorations of the facts are ongoing. Iskandar323 (talk) 11:59, 10 April 2023 (UTC)

Responsibility

La Repubblica says that the Islamic Jihad Movement in Palestine claimed responsibility. Should that be included in the article? Jim Michael 2 (talk) 15:37, 10 April 2023 (UTC)

Usually, when there is a claim of responsibility, it is reported all over the place, especially by Israeli media. I don't think we should include it unless we have other sources as well. Selfstudier (talk) 15:52, 10 April 2023 (UTC)

I second Selfstudier on this. I think there is enough reporting to suggest this was an intentional attack for the time being but all the reported claims of responsibility don't seem to specify where those claims come from. Unfortunately, my Italian is not nearly good enough to be certain on the matter. ~ Pbritti (talk) 16:12, 10 April 2023 (UTC)

Severe BLP problems

This article names an individual as the "perpetrator" of an "attack" (and, in places, a "terrorist attack"), a crime which he has not yet been convicted of. Per WP:BLPCRIME, none of this should be in the article. --Nat Gertler (talk) 20:37, 10 April 2023 (UTC)

He can't be prosecuted because he's dead. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 21:20, 10 April 2023 (UTC)

Still a BLP vio, tho. Selfstudier (talk) 21:26, 10 April 2023 (UTC)

Yes, I should've specified that it gets there through WP:BDP, as it very much matches what is discussed in that with regard to gruesome crimes. But it looks as though there have been attempts to fix it up (although the article title still provides a concern.) --Nat Gertler (talk) 21:37, 10 April 2023 (UTC)

WP:BDP emphasizes that the policy only applies to individuals accused of a possible suicide or particularly gruesome crime. Considering that the suspect is dead under accusation of murder as reported by multiple reliable sources, I think reference to them as a "suspect" is probably the best decision. However, the vast majority of reliable source concur in characterizing the incident as an "attack". I moved the article to that title after it was unusually created under the title "shooting" despite the preliminary reports claiming it was a shooting being dispelled by the time it was created. I think that "attack" or "car ramming" are the most viable titles, with both supported by sourcing. ~ Pbritti (talk) 22:30, 10 April 2023 (UTC)

The bodies of both Times of Israel articles avoid calling it an attack in their own voice, at most calling it a "suspected attack". The first of two Haaretz articles calls it an attack, but the second (more recent) does not and specifically addresses that there are differing statements on whether it was an attack or not. I don't read Italian, but also don't trust automated translation for this sort of nuance. And yes, if this is not an accident, I think it qualifies as a gruesome crime. So perhaps, instead of "attack" in the title, "automotive incident"? --Nat Gertler (talk) 23:27, 10 April 2023 (UTC)

Shooting "automotive incident" down hard as all the sources I've seen don't even approximate that phrasing. The benefit of "car ramming" is that it doesn't absolutely imply intentionality while also conforming with with reporting from CNN and CBS (both of which, in this case, I think are preferable objective sources considering their distance from the involved parties). ~ Pbritti (talk) 23:41, 10 April 2023 (UTC)

I will accept car-ramming. --Nat Gertler (talk) 00:54, 11 April 2023 (UTC)

I thought about this too, and car-ramming is both precise and neutral. Iskandar323 (talk) 07:28, 11 April 2023 (UTC)

@NatGertler and Iskandar323: Thank you both for your swiftness, courteousness, and commitment to BLP policy! ~ Pbritti (talk) 15:11, 11 April 2023 (UTC)

Updates

When can you updated this article? Now the elements are defined. the sources of information are reliable and objective. The body of our compatriot was received by the President of the Italian Republic in Rome. --Peter39c (talk) 18:06, 12 April 2023 (UTC)

Here's another https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/israel-tel-aviv-car-ramming-contradicting-accounts-raise-questions Selfstudier (talk) 18:16, 12 April 2023 (UTC)

You continue to deny the reality, that this is a deliberate act, terrorist, and there is a victim! What are you making up today that there was another one in Jerusalem, also classified as an accident, when the Presidents of States claim otherwise!--Peter39c (talk) 14:56, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

https://www.timesofisrael.com/five-wounded-in-suspected-car-ramming-attack-near-busy-jerusalem-market/ Peter39c (talk) 14:58, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

WP:AVOIDYOU Selfstudier (talk) 15:00, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

it is not a personal matter but inevitably the article must reflect reality.

Facts, essential information cannot be omitted. The article needs to be updated. Peter39c (talk) 15:06, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

Guesses, conjectures, and assumptions, however, can be very much omitted. --Nat Gertler (talk) 16:19, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

I'm waiting for the article updates. Because as I reiterated it must be accurate and relevant to reality. Peter39c (talk) 19:12, 2 May 2023 (UTC)

When you have reliable sources that describe a formal investigation concluding the nature of this incident, link them and suggest the changes you want made. Until then, policy dictates that we aren't supposed to definitively describe this as an attack. ~ Pbritti (talk) 20:18, 2 May 2023 (UTC)

I've been asking for an article update for months and the contributors have left it at that for updates. The investigations and the authorities classified it as a terrorist attack. A head of state does not receive the body of a person involved in a road accident at the airport but does so if this is the victim of a terrorist attack.

and this happened. President Mattarella received Parisi's body at the Rome airport. Peter39c (talk) 23:35, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

A head of state receives a body if they think it will be politically useful of them to do so. That does not make your interpretation of Mattarella's actions a reliable source for what actually happened. -- Nat Gertler (talk) 23:41, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

Consensus remains against describing it as an "attack". The insertion of BLPCRIME material despite this consensus—which was not rediscussed or mitigated by new sources—is inappropriate. Please refrain from attempting to do the same thing months from now. ~ Pbritti (talk) 23:53, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

The Italian prosecutor's office has opened the investigation for terrorism, not for a road accident.

But here you also take away the classifications that it is a crime. Peter39c (talk) 00:08, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

"Investigation for" doesn't mean they found something. Really. Many investigations in this world come up empty. We build the article around facts, not around your assumptions. -- Nat Gertler (talk) 00:20, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

References

"The driver's car "

The article repeatedly refers to "The driver's car", as if the driver is some established character and there is more than one car involved here, with the rest not being driver's cars. It's an awkward and unneeded construction: "A car" or "the car" should do fine. --Nat Gertler (talk) 16:45, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

Really, the entire paragraph is a mess. "The driver's car hit seven people, fatally injuring one Italian tourist,[1][4] and injuring two other Italians and four British citizens.[1] The driver was then fatally shot by a police officer.[1][5] Alessandro Parini, a 35-year-old lawyer from Rome who had only arrived in Tel Aviv a few hours before, was killed after being struck by the vehicle.[1][4]" -- this makes it sounds like two Italians died: one who died in the accident, and then the lawyer who was killed after the accident, as if it were a separate thing. I propose "The car struck seven people, killing Alessandro Parini, a 35-year-old lawyer visiting from Rome, and injuring two other Italians and four British citizens. The driver was then fatally shot by a police officer. " -- Nat Gertler (talk) 19:29, 9 July 2023 (UTC)

This proposed revision reads well. I think you should make the change. Good job! ~ Pbritti (talk) 20:14, 9 July 2023 (UTC)