Talk:2023 DMZ incident

Merge proposal

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

The result of this discussion was Merge 2023 DMZ inciden to Travis King. Lililolol (talk) 10:52, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

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I propose merging Travis King (American soldier) into 2023 DMZ incident. I think the content in Travis King (American soldier) can easily be explained in the context of 2023 DMZ incident, and a merge would not cause any article-size or weighting problems in 2023 DMZ incident.✠ SunDawn ✠ (contact) 07:54, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

@U2You Too, WikiCleanerMan, and Recoil16: pinging contributors from both articles. Thank you. ✠ SunDawn ✠ (contact) 07:59, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

That seems reasonable, seeing as though he is not notable outside of the DMZ incident. – Recoil16 (talk) 08:00, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

Support I support the merge proposal Aqeccac (talk) 10:00, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

I'd wait. Breaking news includes biographical information about criminality prior to the incident. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-66219603 Seems like there will be enough for a biographical article that includes important events prior to the incident CT55555(talk) 14:58, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

Somewhat related: if we're not gonna merge, we should really move Travis King (American soldier) to Travis King, the disambiguation via "(American soldier)" is not necessary as we do not appear to have another Travis King. Not sure if it would be appropriate to open an RM (or maybe just file a request at RM/TR) while we're discussing a merger though. – Recoil16 (talk) 16:20, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

It appears it has been moved. – Recoil16 (talk) 09:33, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

• Strong Oppose. King is being called the first soldier to defect to North Korea in 50 years. He is too high profile of a person to be merged. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 17:12, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

• I changed my opinion to a reverse merger per the suggestion below. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 18:47, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

• Support — Per nominator. No one is arguing that he's not notable, but there's nothing you can say about him that can't go into the article. From what Knowledgekid87 said, he allegedly defected. elijahpepe@wikipedia (he/him) 18:22, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

• You honestly don't think anything is going to happen to him inside of North Korea? This goes beyond the scope of a "DMZ incident" as we aren't talking about a border skirmish which would fall under List of border incidents involving North and South Korea. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 18:38, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

• Merge 2023 DMZ incident into Travis King This really should go the other way. The subject here is King; the incident of him running across the DMZ isn't all that important. This is to bring it into consistency with similar articles such as Oh Chong-song and Otto Warmbier where the subject is the person not the incident. TarkusAB^talk/contrib 20:20, 19 July 2023 (UTC)
• Merge to Travis King as per above.--Jack Upland (talk) 02:02, 20 July 2023 (UTC)
• Merge 2023 DMZ incident into Travis King as per above.--User:U2You Too (talk) 06:31, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose

Sebbog13 (talk) 09:51, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

why did it reply to U2You Too? Sebbog13 (talk) 09:51, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

• Support – Merge to 2023 DMZ incident per WP:BLP1E and WP:BIO1E. The first paragraph of BIO1E says "cover the event, not the person". That's not to say that in the future things might expand sufficiently to have a standalone bio article on King, but strip the event coverage from the King article and you've got barely anything there – start class, if not stub. Both articles are attempting to achieve the same goal, and we've effectively got a WP:CFORK because of that. For now, at least, we should cover the event (with an expanded biography in this article), and redirect Travis King here. MIDI (talk) 17:48, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

An American defector to North Korea is not WP:LOWPROFILE, especially in 2023. There are several articles about previous defectors. TarkusAB^talk/contrib 17:23, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

Not a valid argument per WP:OTHERSTUFF. 92.9.151.170 (talk) 08:56, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

• Merge 2023 DMZ incident into Travis King. This is not a WP:LOWPROFILE person so I don't see how WP:BLP1E applies here. This obviously isn't the end of the story and I agree per above that we should have consistency in our articles. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 18:46, 20 July 2023 (UTC)
• Merge This is a clear case of SNOW to me. Merge the contents and redirect to this article. Not notable enough outside the incident. --WikiCleanerMan (talk) 23:51, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

  This is not a clear WP:SNOW as TarkusAB created a new proposal inside another proposal, the way I see it there is no consensus for now. ✠ SunDawn ✠ (contact) 23:55, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

  Consensus seems clear just now, but that is not the same as there being a snowballs chance of a different outcome. There is no urgency here, let the process play out please. CT55555(talk) 00:18, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

• Merge “incident” with Travis King article I believe in this, the defector is more notable than the incident itself, and should be so titled. I have no preference regarding whether or not the Travis King article includes the words, “American soldier”. Juneau Mike (talk) 01:18, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

Can we close this discussion? Seems like the majority would rather discuss a merger of 2023 DMZ incident into Travis King, perhaps we can close this one and start another discussion on that? U2You Too (talk) 10:01, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

A majority shouldn't be a deciding factor of the outcome of this discussion, and is not an indicator of consensus. That said, a quick count up above seems to show six editors in support of the proposal (SunDawn, Recoil16, Aqeccac, elijahpepe, MIDI, and WikiCleanerMan) and six against it (CT55555, Knowledgekid87, TarkusAB, U2You Too, Sebbog13, and Juneau Mike). At the moment there's neither consensus nor majority. MIDI (talk) 11:07, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

That's unecessaray. Regardless of the original request, the discussion at its core is about what to do with these two articles with content overlap. TarkusAB^talk/contrib 17:18, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

• Merge 2023 DMZ incident into Travis King per consistency with articles like Otto Warmbier, Kenneth Bae. Article about the detainee themselves, not the incident of them becoming detained. Anybar (talk) 15:55, 22 July 2023 (UTC)
• Merge 2023 DMZ incident into Travis King per consistency, and the idea that it's easier to remember Travis King as a search term, than 2023 DMZ incident. — Maile (talk) 03:27, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

  Agree that the main article should be titled Travis King. This remains consistent with the articles about other Americans who have defected to Korea. 1.127.104.36 (talk) 16:21, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Background on DMZ

We don't need a background on the DMZ etc; that's what we have links for. Jack Upland (talk) 05:17, 20 July 2023 (UTC)