Talk:2020 Irish general election/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

Polls table

@Wikimucker: Polls tables take a huge amount of place, forcing users to scroll endlessly. That's why in every election page, as well as all the previous irish election pages, we place them in their own different pages, and leave the informative graphical summing them up on the election one. It's doing as usual.--Aréat (talk) 12:42, 22 January 2020 (UTC)

It's "a huge amount of scrolling" of the content people are coming here to see. Certainly, I find it the most interesting thing on the page - along with the list of retirees. It's been here since 2016, and we (who have been here for those four years) would like it to stay for the remaining three weeks, until the next election is over, if it's all the same to you... Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 15:07, 22 January 2020 (UTC)

It's been here since 2016, and we (who have been here for those four years) would like it to stay for the remaining three weeks, until the next election is over, if it's all the same to you...

I do not wish to sound rude, but this sounds like an awkward WP:OWN. Just because some reduced group of people has been doing one thing for four years does not mean it grants any right for that thing to be maintained that way at these people's leisure and until they wish to allow for changes to proceed. Precisely, it has been when the most people has been coming to this page (this is, upon the election being called) when this issue has emerged; maybe because these people outside the reduced four-year group are finding problems when navigating the page. I don't find it particularly surprising at all: the article should be befitting and workable to all Wikipedia users, not just a few. Impru20^talk 15:15, 22 January 2020 (UTC)

With other election articles, we generally include polling on the main election article until that section gets so big that a separate article is created. I would say we are at about that point with the polling for this election. Bondegezou (talk) 15:19, 22 January 2020 (UTC)

It depends; in many cases articles for opinion polling are created even before that point is reached, specifically for countries where it is anticipated that such opinion polling will get big (Italy, Spain, UK, Germany, etc). Ireland can be a specific case where opinion polling may be so unfrequent as for it to start out in the main article, but when it gets about 2/3 of the article's size it seems like a good time to split it. Impru20^talk 15:26, 22 January 2020 (UTC)

Someone who doesnt' want to scroll doesn't have to, because there's literally nothing after the opinion poll section except footnotes and references. Yes, WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS, but Wikipedia exists for the reader, not the editor. There may be editors who love nothing more than making every election page uniform, but certainly this reader, and plenty of others would like to be able to see everything to do with the next Irish general election, on 8th February, on the one page, thanks. It's been 4 years. You can wait 17 days. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 15:38, 22 January 2020 (UTC)

Wikipedia exists for the reader, not the editor. This is precisely the point I am trying to make. You have been editing the article for 4 years. It's now, when the election gets close, when the most readers come to visit it. And precisely when this happens, when the page stops being relatively isolated in a bubble to get much more attention, is when people start complaining that it's difficult to navigate. You are making assumptions of something which has not happened, i.e. that "many readers" "would like" to see things your way. Well, where are those readers? Because the more new readers that come to this page and post their opinions, the more support there is for the split of opinion polls into a different article. You are acting like if the few people editing this page for the last four years and other Irish people have any superior right or claim over this article, when that's not true. Impru20^talk 15:46, 22 January 2020 (UTC)

Bastun I had already created a section up top for your 2c if'n you could copy and paste up there. Wikimucker (talk) 15:48, 22 January 2020 (UTC)

Sorry, didn't notice that - normal practice is to start new sections at the bottom. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 17:16, 22 January 2020 (UTC)

adriankavanaghelections.org

Can we consider adriankavanaghelections.org to be a reliable source? Yes, it's a blog - but it's specialised, balanced and more fact than opinion based. Thoughts? Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 22:51, 16 January 2020 (UTC)

Absolutely so, yes, he has many sources and has been at this quite a while. Note he mainly lists 'declarations'until formal nominations close (next friday I think) and he is most useful for fast moving news but will need a revisit to double check actual nominations are = declarations afterwards. Wikimucker (talk) 00:15, 17 January 2020 (UTC)

Poll at 10pm tonight Bastun,Spleodrach,CaneFruitMan,Iveagh Gardens , I'll be out.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/election-2020-irish-times-ipsos-mrbi-poll-to-be-released-tonight-1.4145162 Wikimucker (talk) 18:19, 20 January 2020 (UTC)

TV debates

Are Renua actually standing any candidates, Wikimucker? If they are, grand. If not, their column should be removed. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 15:41, 22 January 2020 (UTC)

Bastun We don't know for sure until later today but for now....allegedly, yes. They have no leader I believe but I never implied they did. > http://www.renuaireland.com/candidates-2020 Wikimucker (talk) 15:44, 22 January 2020 (UTC)

"They haven't gone away, you know..." Jaysus! Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 17:28, 22 January 2020 (UTC)

I'll raise that to a Jaysus^2 for you Bastun > https://twitter.com/gemmaod1/status/1219941008437325824 but they are not a registered party AFAIK Wikimucker (talk) 18:44, 22 January 2020 (UTC)

:blink: :blink: ... No, they're not. But we're limiting this table, and the slogans/manifestos one to "parties that managed to have someone elected to the last Dáil", I presume... anything else would be a bit mad. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 19:13, 22 January 2020 (UTC)

anything else would be a bit mad. There are (my estimate) 5 registered ultra right wing parties running candidates plus the Jaysus^2 pair who are not registered as a party...so more than a bit mad I'll say. I believe we have everyone worth calling a party already but there is a slight issue with S-PBP in Galway West, all 3 components were running someone a few days ago and both S and PBP nominated a candidate in the end. I must investigate that later to see if it happened more widely and whether it means there is a Schplit!!!! Wikimucker (talk) 19:59, 22 January 2020 (UTC)

Retiring Incumbents

It might be pushing it to say that Maria Bailey "announced" her retirement and Seán Barrett quietly went away with no annoucement at all.

As nominations close today I propose to prune the retirements subsection to:

a) remove announcement dates. b) change description to "Retiring Incumbents"

after I check they are all really gone and that nobody else joins them by end of business today. Wikimucker (talk) 10:59, 22 January 2020 (UTC)

Wikimucker Why remove the announcement date? I think its relevant. Spleodrach (talk) 16:36, 23 January 2020 (UTC)

SpleodrachDate confirmed then, Barrett just went quietly and Bailey only at the 11th hour Wikimucker (talk) 16:44, 23 January 2020 (UTC)

Wikimucker Should Dara Murphy be added to Retiring incumbents with a footnote to explain he resigned before the dissolution? Spleodrach (talk) 13:09, 29 January 2020 (UTC)

Spleodrach Dara is special, he announced he would go, effectively he went right around then but kept taking money for much longer and was then pushed into retiring prematurely in the end because he was newsworthy. The announcement date is correct though. I believe that elder statesmen types like Enda are allowed by Dáil practice to not being seen much after they move to the backbenches, you can peruse attendances here. > https://data.oireachtas.ie/ie/oireachtas/members/recordAttendanceForTaa/2020/2020-01-01_deputies-verification-of-attendance-for-the-payment-of-taa-1-jan-to-30-nov-2019_en.pdf , note that some people are heavy on the non sitting days compared to others. Legitimately a busy committee chair would be there a lot on non sitting days.

I could not, in all honesty, distill all this into a para without some residual POV issues for you though and would recommend leaving well enough alone. Wikimucker (talk) 13:31, 29 January 2020 (UTC)

Murphy was there until recently, I do not know who took him out. > https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=2020_Irish_general_election&type=revision&diff=865988368&oldid=865988298

@Spleodrach: This is when he was removed. [Diff] Not possible to undo. Never noticed but Idoesbedrownded in the last week around here. Wikimucker (talk) 14:49, 29 January 2020 (UTC)

I've added at footnote about it, which also explains the vacant seat. I think this is a good compromise. Spleodrach (talk) 18:02, 29 January 2020 (UTC)

Analysis of exit polls

What a fascinating exit poll last night on this election. Would be fantastic to give some comment (and/or) eventually create a separate article, on the historical accuracy of Irish exit poll vs actual result. I was watching RTÉ last night and they never gave anything on this fact? Britishfinance (talk) 09:52, 9 February 2020 (UTC)

An article is a possibility! Yeah, terrible service from RTÉ. Virgin Media One capitalised, ironically, on an RTÉ poll!. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 11:39, 9 February 2020 (UTC)

Incredible to have a whole hour of discussion about a series of numbers, but no actual additional information on what those numbers mean? Even by looking at the past Wikipedia articles on opinion polls for Irish elections, I can see that they are quite accurate, which a slight bias to under-reporting FF because, as a Virgin One commentator said, the old people tend to avoid the pollsters? A table showing exit poll % vs. final overall vote % vs. final overall seats %, is still not available today in all Irish media – but this data is in Wikipedia (although not as an explicit comparison). Britishfinance (talk) 11:43, 9 February 2020 (UTC)

Electoral system

2.2 Voting and Counting

Should this not include a forecast of when the results will be known based on previous elections?

No, because it would be pointless, almost certainly inaccurate, and definitely WP:CRYSTAL. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 16:43, 10 February 2020 (UTC)

Include Independent Alliance in Infobox?

Should we not include Independent Alliance in the Infobox, if necessary with a footnote explaining their precise status? Admittedly, they are not technically a party, but they are treated as one by the opinion pollsters, and are the 4th largest such party in the latest poll and in many other polls. At the last election with 6 seats and 4.2% of the vote they were the 5th largest party by votes and joint 5th by seats. They are a non-negligable part of the minority Government's parliamentary support, and as such currently have 2 Cabinet Ministers and 3 attendees at Cabinet. So it seems both odd and somewhat misleading to our readers to leave them out of the infobox because of a seemingly largely irrelevant technicality which can be clarified in a footnote. Tlhslobus (talk) 10:38, 27 August 2018 (UTC)

Seems like a good idea - I don't see any reason why they should be excluded, and as you say a footnote can explain their status. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 11:40, 27 August 2018 (UTC)

I agree with this proposal. Spleodrach (talk) 12:05, 27 August 2018 (UTC)

Thanks. It looks like we can go ahead and do it. I may try to do so myself later, but I'm a bit busy so I'm not sure precisely when I'll be able to get around to it, so if anybody wants to go ahead and do it before I get around to it, please feel free to do so. Regards. Tlhslobus (talk) 12:35, 28 August 2018 (UTC)

I've now added it, in 5th place (as they had same seats but more votes than Solidarity-PBP at the last election). I was mistaken above - they only have 1 Cabinet Minister and 2 attendees instead of the 2 and 3 I mistakenly mentioned above. I've had a difficulty with their party colour, which is currently showing as a darker shade of grey (C0C0C0) than we have in our opinion polls section (which is perhaps roughly E0E0E0, which is then not very clearly visible), but seems perhaps about the same as the 'hex=gray' which is used in the Composition Bar in the infobox of our article on them. Maybe somebody who knows more about how Wikipedia assigns party colours might fix this.Tlhslobus (talk) 14:09, 29 August 2018 (UTC)

I propose we should have Feargal Quinn as 'leader' given he's the closest thing they have to any leadership (chairman). Irishpolitical (talk) 17:10, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

No, they don't have a leader. Anyway Quinn is retired from politics. Spleodrach (talk) 19:18, 27 March 2019 (UTC)

We should probably get ready to remove the Independent Alliance from the Infobox. —Iveagh Gardens (talk) 17:15, 13 January 2020 (UTC)

Aaaaand replace them with what exactly??? Independents for Change are a more obvious deletion seeing as they nearly all buggered off to Europe last year but I cannot decide who could replace them. The Healy Raes have more elected members than I4C.

For aesthetic reasons there should be 6 or 9 parties, 3 per row, in the Infobox. 12 is too much altogether.

We either go with 6 or 9 in the Infobox then and I am more inclined to prune it down to 6 and leave the selection at FF FG SF GR SD and finally 'Solidarity/PBP. Wikimucker (talk) 16:15, 14 January 2020 (UTC)

Likely to see 7 parties in the next Dáil - don't forget Labour - so that number seems a good compromise. Culloty82 (talk) 14:42, 15 January 2020 (UTC)

Agree with 6, but it should be the current largest 6, i.e. FG, FF, SF, Lab, S-PGP and Green. No room for SocDems, I'm afraid. Spleodrach (talk) 15:54, 15 January 2020 (UTC)

Apologies Spleodrach for the premature switch, cache hadn't refreshed on this. I'd be inclined towards 6 as well. —Iveagh Gardens (talk) 16:33, 15 January 2020 (UTC)

Apologies for forgetting Labour, are we moving to 6 in the Infobox and FG, FF, SF, Lab, S-PGP and Green. I am agreed with those 6.

Articles Elections 2007 (infobox 6) 2011 (infobox 9) and 2016 (infobox 9) in the interests of balance here but 2016 includes Renua who promptly imploded afterwards. Wikimucker (talk) 18:11, 15 January 2020 (UTC)

Per WP:Bold, I've gonae ahead and changed it to those 6. Spleodrach (talk) 18:43, 15 January 2020 (UTC)

And per WP:BOLD and WP:NOTPAPER, I've reverted. Why would we exclude parties that won seats last time out?! Especially when over the last two elections, we've gone with 9?! "Aesthetic reasons" doesn't cut it. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 09:33, 16 January 2020 (UTC)

Consensus was 6, Spain only has 6 for example, the 6 largest, as does Poland. I will revert to 6 presently unless a case is made for 9 in the interim. Wikimucker (talk) 14:56, 16 January 2020 (UTC)

Meanwhile I suggest people look at the richer data presented for those 6 parties in the Polish Infobox ....for inspiration. Wikimucker (talk) 14:58, 16 January 2020 (UTC)

WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS isn't an argument. Arbitrarily removing relevant material that's been here for literally over 4 years, just 3 weeks out from the next election - and directly concerns the topic of the article - smacks of censorship, to be honest. Honestly - what is the problem with including all of the parties/groupings that have been on the page since 2011, and have Dáil representation?! Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 17:28, 16 January 2020 (UTC)

It is not arbitrary, both the IA and I4C have essentially collapsed and IA were never a party anyway while I4C is formally registered, a large infobox....in that context....strikes me as inchoate.

I'll raise ya a 404 for your 'arbitrary'. > https://independentalliance.ie/, how is that???

Wikimucker (talk) 17:48, 16 January 2020 (UTC)

Again, it's not arbitrary, the Ind. Alliance and I4C both don't exist anymore, and are not contesting this election. I will be removing them again, unless someone can justify that they remain. Spleodrach (talk) 22:52, 16 January 2020 (UTC)

As you said above, we include parties/groupings who have "imploded" after (though both the IA and I4C haven't quite "imploded" just yet, managing a couple of MEPs!) and they've lasted 4+ years. In 2007, we listed every party who had Dáil representation (6); same in 2011 and 2016 (9 each). 2011 even includes a one-man party and one with no seats at all... Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 22:50, 16 January 2020 (UTC)

It's foolish and misleading to list groups/parties that are not contesting this election. Spleodrach (talk) 22:53, 16 January 2020 (UTC)

I've no objection to removing groups/parties that aren't contesting this election, but those who are should remain - regardless of "aesthetics." Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 22:58, 16 January 2020 (UTC)

I've added I4C back, as they have managed to get a TD elected. Seems like grounds for inclusion to me! Pirate pete (talk) 17:00, 10 February 2020 (UTC)

Image to represent S-PBP

File:S-PBP Alliance 2020.png

Logos which consist only of text and simply shapes are considered by Wikipedia and Wikimedia commons as fair game for creative commons licenses. All three logos of the members of S-PBP fall into this category. Thus, all three images can be combined into one image, as seen to the left. How would people feel about the image on the left being used in lieu of a "leader" image in the article? As an example of this happening elsewhere on Wikipedia, On 1998 Indian general election, a party logo is used in lieu of a leader's image. CeltBrowne (talk) 07:22, 6 February 2020 (UTC)

Yes, agree. Pirate pete (talk) 17:00, 10 February 2020 (UTC)

Results by Constituency Map

Map currently shows Joan Collins as an independent politician for Dublin South-Central. She's part of Independents 4 Change, a registered political party. As such, the map must be updated to reflect this (like it reflects Aontu's only seat in the Dáil Éireann) --70.63.129.181 (talk) 05:13, 11 February 2020 (UTC)

Map shows FF with 37. It should be in accordance with the 2016 map in the Results section which shows FG with 50, not 49, Thus counting the CC as FG. For the sake of consistency either this map should show FF with 38 or all previous maps with the same case should be changed. 42.109.240.49 (talk) 07:12, 11 February 2020 (UTC)

Question

Hello, I have made a small article in Norwegian about this very interesting election. What I wondered was where you get the figures for voters, participating voters etc. I can see that Irish Times have them, but where do they get it from. What is the official source of information? Have fun with interesting political days to come!--Trygve W Nodeland (talk) 11:09, 11 February 2020 (UTC)

Hi @Trygve W Nodeland: great to see the interest in our election from abroad! We don't have a single electoral commission, but have separate returning officers across the country, which are variously reliable with putting information up. These will eventualy be collated by the Department of Housing, Planning and Local Government. In the mean time, I can only recommend a combination of The Irish Times, RTÉ, our national broadcaster, and the personal but very up-to-date site Irish Elections. I have no connection to any of these sources! -Iveagh Gardens (talk) 13:22, 11 February 2020 (UTC)

Yes, what Iveagh Gardens said. In particular, the RTE pages covering each constituency were brilliant. Adrian Kavanagh Elections, while a blog, is also regarded as a reliable source for Irish election coverage. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 13:51, 11 February 2020 (UTC)

@Iveagh Gardens: Thank you!--Trygve W Nodeland (talk) 13:53, 11 February 2020 (UTC)

Thank you both! --Trygve W Nodeland (talk) 13:54, 11 February 2020 (UTC)

Ceann Comhairle counting

Quick note to people updating this page: the RTÉ and other results reporting websites are including Seán Ó Fearghaíl as part of the FF count, but the main results table on here includes a separate entry for Ceann Comhairle, so we shouldn't double-count him in that table. I've added a footnote to the sidebar.

@Shadowofdread:, @Not Another NPC:, @Grizzliesrule888: you've done a lot of work on this recently. Pirate pete (talk) 13:26, 10 February 2020 (UTC)

@130.15.34.5:, please also note that the CC doesn't count as part of FF's parliamentary group and didn't win a seat at this election (he was returned automatically).

The CC did not "win" his seat since he was automatically returned, so it is misleading to have "38" as "seats won" by FF since they only won 37. Either we say "37 + 1" and clarify that the CC is part of FF or we say 37 and remove the CC from the count. --70.63.129.181 (talk) 00:37, 11 February 2020 (UTC)

Past elections have counted him in with his party of origin, I don't see why this election is any different. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2607:FEA8:E9A0:CE13:4582:9968:71B1:36AC (talk) 00:40, 11 February 2020 (UTC)

@2607:FEA8:E9A0:CE13:4582:9968:71B1:36AC:, that is true but it doesn't diminish the fact that the seat was not won, so it should not be included in the "Seats won" category since it was returned automatically. Saying that FF won 38 seats is misleading -- they won 37. --70.63.129.181 (talk) 00:54, 11 February 2020 (UTC)

In previous elections' infoboxes it hardly mattered and a footnote sufficed to clarify. In this case people are trying to claim that FF won strictly the most seats, which is not true. Pirate pete (talk) 01:20, 11 February 2020 (UTC)

@CaneFluteMan: please stop edit-warring on this page. Pirate pete (talk) 01:21, 11 February 2020 (UTC)

Map shows FF with 37. It should be in accordance with the 2016 map in the Results section which shows FG with 50, not 49, Thus counting the CC as FG. For the sake of consistency either this map should show FF with 38 or all previous maps with the same case should be changed. Same goes for the infobox, either change all the previous election pages equally or count the CC in FF in this page's infobox. 42.109.240.49 (talk) 07:14, 11 February 2020 (UTC)

@42.109.240.49:Yes, I agree it would be logical to go back and change those previous elections in which the CC was returned automatically to reflect the fact (though note that this doesn't apply to all general elections). I'm not inclined to do this before we've reached consensus here, though — unfortunately we're currently in an edit-war situation. Pirate pete (talk) 17:18, 11 February 2020 (UTC)

To complicate further: there really needs to be consistency between the infobox, the map, and the results table. The fact that the Ceann Comhairle is automatically returned does not require a dedicated line in the results table, it tells us nothing except the obvious: there was one before dissolution, there is one after the election (well, technically, no, there isn't, until the first sitting day). The reality is the outgoing CC was a Fianna Fáil member and should be counted as such in the results, as it's misleading to have FF listed with only 37 seats now, when they have 38 deputies right now. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 17:42, 11 February 2020 (UTC)

"Next Irish general election" listed at Redirects for discussion

An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect Next Irish general election. Please participate in the redirect discussion if you wish to do so.
SSSB (talk) 21:25, 11 February 2020 (UTC)

Registered voters and spoilt ballots

We don't have any total counts in the results table yet for registered voters or spoilt ballots. This information is available at the per-constituency level at irelandelection.com, but I don't have time to write a scraper for the data right now; dropping the link here in case anyone else does :) Pirate pete (talk) 10:39, 12 February 2020 (UTC)

The missing statistics have now been included, along with minor corrections to the election results. These corrections stem from a discrepancy in the first count results for Galway West as published on irelandelection.com, which in turn affected nationwide figures; the referred site has been alerted to this fact. At any rate, the updated figures are in line with the underlying JSON data on rte.ie, both at the nationwide and constituency levels. Manuel Alvarez-Rivera (talk) 14:31, 15 February 2020 (UTC)

Thank you Manuel Alvarez-Rivera! --Aréat (talk) 14:44, 15 February 2020 (UTC)