Talk:2008 Atlantic hurricane season/Archive 3

Possible sub-article?

I'm just putting this out there for as an idea. As we all know, Haiti has been battered by four storms within the span of 3 weeks, Fay, Gustav, Hanna, and Ike. The rains from Fay and Gustav led to the catastrophic flooding from Hanna and the impact of Ike is beginning to show. Combined, these four storms have claimed over 600 lives in Haiti. An article about the four storms and their impacts on Haiti could be made. It doesn't seem useful though as you can put the information in the four individual articles. Like i said, just an idea. –Cyclonebiskit 14:14, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Not a good idea. Each individual article can cover their impacts just as well, and at the end of the season a "Deaths and damages" section can be added to the season article. –Juliancolton ^{Tropical Cyclone} 14:17, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Ah, ok.–Cyclonebiskit 14:20, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

I was thinking that, post-season, we might want to consider writing Effects of the 2008 Atlantic hurricane season in Haiti. I know there is no precedent, but sometimes the most interesting articles are the ones that are off the beaten track. Plasticup ^T/C 02:56, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

I still don't like the idea. If and only if the season article and storm article exceeds their limits can we justify having such an article. –Juliancolton ^{Tropical Cyclone} 13:19, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

But it could be an interesting angle. Neither the season nor the storm articles could properly convey the cumulative effect of these storms: how the disasters built on each other, floods never had a chance to recede, etc. I wouldn't support simply re-writing bits of the other articles into a new one; I think that there would be new material there. But hey, we'll see. Plasticup ^T/C 15:48, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Death toll from all four storms now over 1,000. The article doesn't say how much for each storm, but subtracting the known from Fay, Gustav, and Hanna, would leave >485 others, presumably from Ike. Cyclonebiskit (talk) 19:27, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Well that's the trouble. I don't think that you can attribute many of the deaths to one storm in particular. Many of them are the result of the floods and landslides that were caused by the four storms together. Plasticup ^T/C 19:36, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

I have to disagree with Juliancolton for basically the same reason as Plasticup. Just because X deaths occurred after Hurricane X does not mean that those people were killed by hurricane X. Doing that is like arguing that some people were killed in a landslide on Tuesday by Hurricane Y, which hit a few days after Hurricane X, even though the landslide would never have happened had Hurricane X never existed whereas the landslide would still have happened had Hurricane Y never existed, only on Wednesday instead of Tuesday. So I'd have to agree that Effects of the 2008 Atlantic hurricane season in Haiti is not necessarily a bad idea. Hurricane Mitch murdered Honduras so mercilessly that new maps were needed. Let's say that Haiti needs new maps after this season. Anybody have any idea about how to decide whether those new maps were due to Fay, Gustav, Hanna, or Ike? Hence, Effects of the 2008 Atlantic hurricane season in Haiti being a useful article is entirely possible.

Also, it certainly possible for the NHC to be unable to attribute a damage amount to one single storm: This area had previously been affected by Hurricane Opal a week or two before and it is difficult to separate the damage caused by Opal and Roxanne. Best estimate of the combined damage in the Yucatan peninsula is $1.5 billion.... However, I think that it would be best to wait until the season is over before starting such an article. Miss Madeline | Talk to Madeline 00:11, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

My question remains. Why can't the information be covered in an Impact section of the season article, like 2003 AHS, 2005 AHS, 2006 AHS, 2007 AHS? –Juliancolton ^{Tropical Cyclone} 00:27, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

It could be, but the season articles are generally pretty big without going into detail about the effects in any one country. I might play with a sandbox when the season is over and then we can decide whether it should be incorporated into the season article or stand in its own. There is no need to make a decision until we see what the prose will look like. Plasticup ^T/C 00:53, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Tables are nearly useless for data/information that cannot be ranked in some way. (The fancy term for this unrankable stuff is "qualitative"). By and large, an article like Effects of the 2008 Atlantic hurricane season in Haiti would be what you'd get (and a possible parent of) Effects of Tropical Storm Fay (2008) in Haiti, Effects of Hurricane Gustav in Haiti, Effects of Hurricane Hanna in Haiti, and Effects of Hurricane Ike (2008) in Haiti (or effects of ... in Hispaniola as an alternative for all of them) all lumped into one article, plus "collective effects" and redactions to make it flow smoothly. The "collective"/"cumulative" info is why simply using the individual articles is not entirely adequate. Miss Madeline | Talk to Madeline 02:32, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

The news agencies are starting to pick up on it. Lots of good sources out there now. 1 million homeless. There is a google news topic on it. Gonaïves seems to have it worst, and the situation continues to deteriorate. I just want to store some links here in case we want them. Plasticup ^T/C 03:31, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Gonaives? I knew that sounded familiar, that's where Jeanne killed 3000 people. Bad place for hurricanes. --Golbez (talk) 05:49, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

I agree with the idea of this sub-article but it should not be made until after the season and probably after the TCRs for each respective storm are released. I think that an in-depth analysis of these storm's effects on the country are far beyond the scope of the season article, especially in such an active season and also since Ike looks like it may be very damaging for the U.S. We have an Effects of Hurricane Katrina on New Orleans, so why not Effects of the 2008 Atlantic hurricane season in Haiti? Also, I'm finding it essentially impossible to distinguish the deaths between Hanna and Ike now as no one really knows. We'll probably have to wait for the TCRs to see what the NHCs info provides us with. bob rulz (talk) 06:54, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Disease is setting in, on top of the obvious food and water shortage. Plasticup ^T/C 22:55, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

The dust hasn't completely settled, so I'd recommend against a season effects subarticle for now. So what if the season's impact section dominates—it's supposed to be the bulk of the article, IMHO. Titoxd^{(?!? - cool stuff)} 09:03, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Reforestation project in Haiti might slow the floods and landslides. Plasticup ^T/C 14:42, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

Strongest Storm?

Shouldn't Hurricane Ike and Hurricane Gustav be put as the season's strongest storm? Hurricane Ike had a lower pressure, but Gustav had higher winds. Shouldn't both be in the strongest storm part of this article?

Strength is measured by intensity, which is the minimum central pressure. Ike was the most intense storm. Plasticup ^T/C 23:26, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Gustav was actually more powerful than Ike; Ike was just more intense, so shouldn't Hurricane Ike be put there for having the lowest pressure, but Gustav there for the highest winds? Note that the winds do not corrilate to the pressure, so Ike was more intense, but Gustav was stronger by winds. Therefore, I think both should be put there, because one had a lower pressure, but another had higher winds. Either that, or take off the 145 mph put next to Ike. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.235.204.64 (talk) 20:21, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

No because that bit off the infobox refers to Lowest Pressure not Hgihest wind speed. Jason Rees (talk) 20:26, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

I know, but because hurricane Ike did not have higher winds than Gustav, the 145 mph shouldn't be put there, unless if you want to put both hurricanes on the list. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.235.204.64 (talk) 21:04, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Double lists?

Why is there a List of storms in the 2008 Atlantic hurricane season right above a list of storms in 2008 already put there? I don't think you should have 2 lists for the same season until the season is over - unless if you want to turn it into a statistics chart.

At the end of the season this article will be turned into prose, and the difference between 2008 Atlantic hurricane season and List of storms in the 2008 Atlantic hurricane season will become more obvious. Plasticup ^T/C 23:26, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Ike longest cyclone

What was the longest cyclone since 2000 if not Ike?? Georgia guy (talk) 22:46, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Do you mean the longest-lived Atlantic hurricane? -Ramisses (talk) 23:49, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

If so...Ike hasn't even lived as long as Bertha.--Prosfilaes (talk) 00:03, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

Ike is not a particularly exceptional storm. Plasticup ^T/C 01:35, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

Right, non-exceptional storms that cause storm surges of >20 feet on several landfalls a path of destruction from Seargent Texas to Lafayette, Louisiana, something like 100 people still missing from bolivar peninsula, near complete domicile destruction on bolivar peninsula. estimated 16 billion dollars ($16,000,000,000) worth of damage in Texas alone. Catagory 2 storm with a catagory 4 storm surge (although NOAA is proposing to move Ike to 3 on landfall) There were bouys in the gulf of mexico that registered Cat 3 winds sustained prior to landfall. Chambers county reported that over 50% of structures were either severly damaged or destroyed. Catagories in which Ike is exceptional.

1. Damage done to structures in Texas (#1). Note that Texas was the site of the 1900 hurricane, the worst natural disaster to hit the US. Ike is _now_ believed to have more energy than this storm, although the eye spared Galveston and destroyed bolivar.
2. Land area submerged by storm surge (#1-Texas)
3. Number of customers who lost power in the Southwest. % of customers in a major US city that lost power for more than a few days. As of Friday, one week after power went off in Galveston only 50% of people had regained power.
4. Texas hurricanes that cause a loss of shoreline, probably #1.
5. Area within the Gulf of Mexico, moment with tropical storm force winds
6. Area within the Gulf of Mexico, moment with hurricane force winds.
7. Within the Gulf of Mexico, moment of energy transformation. If Ike is not the single most powerful (in terms of energy dissipation) it will be among the top 5 storms of all time. I was monitoring bouy locations prior to and after the storm, in the areas that tropical storm force winds or greater passed, water temperature dropped an average of 2 degrees, and within the hurricane force wind areas, 3 degrees. This is going to be a storm that is studied for decades because of its anomalous structure and storm surge generation. Ike is an exceptional storm based on precedences.PB666 ^yap 15:26, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

I think it pretty clear that he meant that Ike was not exceptional in length of existence.--Prosfilaes (talk) 16:13, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

I should add to this, because the eye of Ike past over east galveston Island, and because the eye was so broad, possibly 2 wall structures, the storm surge on galveston proper was not more than 14 feet. However in East Galveston County and Southern Chambers County you are goiing to see an approximated storm surge exceeding 20 feet. For example, High Island that sets at 33 ft MSL has a debris line of 25 feet MSL. Gilchrist experienced complete devastation, something like 99.5% of structures were razed. At the Rollover Pass, 5 to 6 rows of homes, there has been a retraction of real estate from the SW end of the pass back to highway 87, this is one the order of 100-200 meters. Satelites photos indicate the storm cut into the soft and hard clay base indicating a very powerful erosion of the peninsula. Gilchrist and Rollover Pass appear to be the points of highest water flow across the peninsula. The USGS had instruments within the Rollover Pass to measure water flow, but this information has not been reported. We are going to see, when all the analysis is complete, that the most severe winds and surge occurred in unexpected areas off a second wind maxima, probably catagory 3 winds and sugre driven be a huge surge engine.

The surge does not appear to have been as catastrophic as some predicted,...

Tell that to the 10,000s of people of Bolivar peninsula that lost homes. I spent the better part of a day tracking down the what's left of a friends house by satellite image, one gets pretty familiar with the extent of damage, the only thing I can compare bolivar to is Bande Ache, Indonesia.

and it's damage was due more to the location of the landfall than the power of the storm. Meteorologically, Ike was not an exceptional storm. Plasticup ^T/C 17:06, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Meteorologically alone cyclones do not exist. West abutting beach, Rollover Pass, Google Maps N Bauer Ln, Bolivar, Texas, Before After. [http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Newsroom/NewImages/images.php3. Note S. Bauer Ln no longer exists, where it used to exist is now part of the gulf of Mexico. The darker colors are compacted clay. IOW the storm surge eroded the sand down to the silt and clay base. To clear up one misconception, a tropical cyclone does not neccesarily requires the tropics, it requires tropical waters, or in other words water with latent energy comparable to waters in the tropics. Water and storm are not divisible. Although we understand much more about what goes on at the surface, new bouys and instruments are directed at what is going on under the surface. Ike exhibits all the qualities of a very mature and strong hurricane in terms of its energy transferrance, it may be one of the oldest storms that formed Cat 3+. Fluid dynamics are very much part of the maturation process. The coastal topology of the Gulf of mexico is as much a part of the storms intensity (energy transferance) moreso that measurement of maximum wind speeds. Part of that energy transference was in the hydrostatic pressure gradients produced by a surge. Bolivar was not the end point of the surge, water was pushed over island across the intercoastal canal, into Bollover Bay and into marshlands of Chambers county, therefore Bolivar was not a hard edge like the seawall, water pushed still further inland. We can look at it like this, if we consider the depth of size of Galveston bay 1,500 km², and consider the storm pushed water an average of 4 meters, and expanded the size of the Bay by 50%. This translates to 10,000,000,000,000 kgs of water elevated by an average of 2 meters equates to 200 Terajoules of energy in the hydrostatic gradient itself. This does not count water offshores or in other bays, such as around New Iberia Louisiana. The hydrostatic gradient may be driven by wind at the surface, but the momentum in the waters motion is carried subsurface, this is why in one photo below, 3 days after parts around high island are still under surge waters. In addition the storm carried warm water into the bay increased the latent energy in the water column providing additional impact value not seen in smaller storms.

Some people are arguing that Isaac's Storm meteorologist Isaac Cline was misled by higher than expected pressure because the 1900 storm may have had a structure much like Ike's, an aged storm ill-defined central eyewall and modest pressure, with a large bands of wind modes away from the first eye-wall. The fault you are making is that you consider strength only interms of moments of inertia at a single point or surge values at measured points. If you knew much about damage and energy you would realize that one has to consider how much energy was transferred from latent heat in the oceans water to kinetic and other dynamic processes (mechanical) and that tells one the strength of the event over an area. To consider this consider that within hours of landfall the surge is moving at 5 to 10 m/sec across the peninsula, that the mass of water is 1020 grams/liter versus air 1.33 grams per liter. That the energy is given by 1/2mv2 that surge energies are 5 to 20 times greater than wind energy. IOW by maturing Ike transferred a large amount of its 'meteorological' observed energy under the waters surface. The surge forces preceded maximum winds by hours and continued hours after the storm passed, and there was a reverse current that lasted for days after Ike was gone.

This image shows the same but high resolution shows the debris line that made its way up the salt dome. The peak of the surge is believed, however, to have been over Rollover Pass.

Wait and the scientific information will catch up with the observations on the ground.

The surge was not as catastrophic as some predicted because:

1. The eyewall moved north of its most probable landfall, San Luis Pass to approximately the South Galveston Jetty.
2. In doing this, at maximum wind it moved the vulnerable areas of Galveston to the 'clean side' of the storm, which means water was retreating into the gulf. The East end of galveston was devastated. The Eyewall was approximately 10 miles radius at impact, which placed the eastern Eyewall over the bolivar peninsula. If you follow the maps from here to here you can see what might have happened to Galveston and Western side of Galveston bay if landfall had been at Seargent, as predicted 3 days before landfall. Don't confuse the lack of information with the lack of occurrence. Even new homes in Crystal Beach survived, however no homes in the farthest east portion of Galveston county, south of TX Hwy 87 (from here to TX hwy 124 survived intact. Lack of surviving housing, level of beach erosion including areas were the island was wider, significant loss of beach front in areas were countermeasures were taken, all indicate that the storm surge maximum was not close to Galveston on Bolivar. I saw the same bullshit after Hurricane Allen, everyone said Allen has lost strength, even though people at Baffin bay registered winds of 140 mph. I went to South Padre Island 2 weeks after the storm, hurricane Allen missed the population center by about 10 miles, but if one traveled an additional 10 miles the Island had been chopped to bits, with 1/4 mile spans in which road set on buried 8 x 8 x 8 foot granite cubes had been ripped out and could no longer be found, followed by lengths of 1/4 to 1/2 mile of dune, followed by 1/4 mile stretches, this went on for miles. I collected exotic fish in these transient lagoons one normally finds on reefs in the Gulf of Mexico. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.PB666 ^yap 21:05, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Debris are washed up by wave action, which is distinct from the storm surge. Please see our article for details. Plasticup ^T/C 21:31, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

WP:Own you can replace this with an article name which you are referring to. Indeed some debris washed up by wave action, those 50 foot waves that crossed over the a land mass traveled 3 miles inland,not. It may be true that some debris was elevated by wave, but surge action was the base those waves deposited debris. And if you examine the image, you will note that the initial winds of the storm were from the east and the south, but this debris was found on the western part of the high Island dome. This debris was deposited after the storm had passed high Island. IOW no big ocean waves, these are bay waves. Typical bay waves never exceed 3 feet, unless of course the Bay is 20 to 30 feet deep. See: Ocean_surface_wavePB666 ^yap 22:17, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

I was referring to our article on storm surge, to which I provided a link. Sorry for the confusion. Plasticup ^T/C 15:12, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

Kyle

I suspect that others have created sandboxes too, but if not feel free to expand on/use mine. User:Plasticup/TD11. I won't cry if someone else's gets published though. Don't worry. :-( Plasticup ^T/C 04:22, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

I don't see anything that says that a tropical depression formed yesterday. Are we sure that's TD11?--Prosfilaes (talk) 04:32, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

It's not yet a TD, but NHC issued a special statement which says it could be one at any time (& thus would not be officially recognized in an advisory for up to 6 hours). CB (ö) 04:39, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

The invest is not a TD, which is why this is a sandbox. But it will likely become one. Plasticup ^T/C 10:34, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

The GFDL and HWRF are showing something really scaring forming from this thing. It's a worst case scenario for NYC, a Cat:3 hitting the NJ coasting, funneling the storm surge into the city. GFDL, HWRF Cyclonebiskit (talk) 18:20, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

Indeed, and as I live very close to NYC, I guess I should keep a close eye on it. In any event, let's try to keep the discussion here related to the article. –Juliancolton ^{Tropical Cyclone} 18:23, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, I live close to NYC also, keeping my on it too, hopefully it's a bust, although, it has been 70 years since the last "big" one. Cyclonebiskit (talk) 18:55, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

The models have been trending west and weaker. I wouldn't fret too much, especially as 93L is experiencing a failure to launch. Plasticup ^T/C 21:09, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

4 dead in Puerto Rico. Storm total rainfall amounts have exceeded 20 to 30 inches in parts of southeast Puerto Rico where rivers are well above flood stage. British Virgin Islands too. Flash flood warnings out. Green alert for many provinces in the Dominican Republic. Plasticup ^T/C 03:02, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

Good idea to make a sandbox on the wannabe system, since it will warrant an article almost immediately upon declaration. CrazyC83 (talk) 03:34, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

It's not great, but for a sandbox I think it looks pretty good. Got a little lead, a Meteorological history, some Preparations and even some Impact. Plasticup ^T/C 03:50, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

Needs {{cite web}}! :) –Juliancolton ^{Tropical Cyclone} 15:32, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

I hate formatting citations! I don't plan on doing that for a sandbox that might be deleted anyway. Plasticup ^T/C 20:56, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

Even if it doesn't develop, the flooding it caused will warrant an article, so it's probably not going to be deleted. –Juliancolton ^{Tropical Cyclone} 21:08, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

If it does much damage to Haiti it can definitely go into the inevitable "008 Atl Season effects in Haiti" article. I'm not sure if it could stand on its own. Plasticup ^T/C 21:19, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

Got a race on your hands... 94L is now high risk on NHC (with special statement issued) so 93L may end up as TD12 rather than TD11... - JVG (talk) 16:20, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

UPDATE: ATCF now showing this as 11L, and Recon supports TS Kyle. However, we shouldn't jump it into userspace until after the 5 pm advisory. CrazyC83 (talk) 18:31, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

The Navy are calling this Kyle. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Itfc+canes=me (talk • contribs)

Hurricane-force subtropical storms?

With the latest STDS showing that 94L is likely to become a tropical or subtropical storm and already has 55 kt winds, how do we treat (operationally) subtropical storms with hurricane winds on here since it would only need to strengthen slightly more? Do we list them in the subtropical storm color (even though it would have Cat 1 winds) or as a Cat 1 for the winds (even if it is not a "hurricane")? CrazyC83 (talk) 15:40, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

Category:Subtropical storms show no precedent. Plasticup ^T/C 16:11, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

There's this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1968_Atlantic_hurricane_season#Subtropical_Storm_One . --Patteroast (talk) 17:32, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

And this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1979_Atlantic_hurricane_season#Subtropical_Storm_One . ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 18:03, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

Hurricanes are tropical. A subtropical cyclone with hurricane force winds is still a subtropical storm. -CWY2190(talk • contributions) 18:38, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

Oh, heavens no, at least not anymore. NHC made a change in the hurricane and subtropical cyclone definitions in 2004/2005. Any subtropical cyclone which reaches 65 knots is deemed a hurricane. Also, subtropical cyclone type B's (neutercanes) fall under the tropical cyclone category. Another subtle change that confounds interpreting the database. I think HURDAT should have its own midrash or Mishna. Oy! Thegreatdr (talk) 20:22, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

Carolinas Storm, pre-Kyle

Can we possibly get an article about this invest? (94L i think). Everyone and their grandmother know it was at least subtropical at landfall, and there is adequate data to support that. If someone would gather this in a short article ("Unnamed Storms" or "Possible Storms") you'd be awesome. -Winter123 (talk) 23:05, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

We'll need someone with more credentials than everyone's grandmothers to say it was "at least subtropical" before we can even start on one. --Golbez (talk) 23:29, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

http://www.wunderground.com/blog/JeffMasters/comment.html?entrynum=1101&tstamp=200809 and http://www.wunderground.com/blog/JeffMasters/comment.html?entrynum=1103&tstamp=200809 (scroll down) any good? - JVG (talk) 00:04, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

The link you gave clearly states that it's NHC's call in these matters, and that the storm was in a "grey area". Certainly not definitive enough to warrant an article. Now, if significant damage, deaths, or weather records of some kind occurred, it could certainly get an article (see Late November 1984 Nor'easter for an example), but I don't really see that from this storm. -RunningOnBrains 19:42, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Also, wikipedia can't use blogs as sources. Running is right though, an article could be created, it just wouldn't be related to the tropical cyclone project. Since it didn't make the NHC monthly summary, it seems like NHC isn't reconsidering their handling of the system. Thegreatdr (talk) 19:47, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Tropical or subtropical storms are sometimes added in the post-season analysis, such as the unnamed storm in 2005 that would otherwise have been named Tammy. If the NHC decides that it was subtropical in review, then it will be added to the list of storms. If they don't, then it has to demonstrate notability in some other way. Did it cause a lot of damage or cause a significant number of fatalities? It doesn't appear that it caused enough damage to be notable if it doesn't end up making the list. DOSGuy (talk) 23:11, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Actually, the storm caused significant beach erosion along the Outer Banks, and there was some heavy rainfall inland. –Juliancolton ^{Tropical Cyclone} 00:57, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Lots of storms cause beach erosion and rain. bob rulz (talk) 06:17, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

If it is upgraded in post-analysis, then an article would be created at that point and it would be added to the list. If an article is created right now, it would be outside the jurisdiction of WPTC as it was officially not a tropical or subtropical cyclone (at least not operationally). As far as creating an article inside the Non-Tropical project, it doesn't appear it was notable/destructive enough to warrant such. CrazyC83 (talk) 15:00, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

Possible Haiti source

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/7652075.stm - JVG (talk) 00:54, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

Tropical Storm 14L (Nana)

The running best track has recently revised their intensity for Invest 97L and declared it a tropical storm. It states it is 14L No-name, but being a tropical storm it would be named Nana. [1] <- tracking chart file Cyclonebiskit (talk) 20:45, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Wind strength is not the only criteria. It needs tropical cyclogenesis. Plasticup ^T/C 20:47, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Well they upgraded it. Looks to be a total fish-spinner though. Plasticup ^T/C 20:56, 12 October 2008 (UTC)