Talk:2006 FIFA World Cup squads

Speculation

I don't think this page should include 'possible squads'; teams should be left blank until the coach has identified at least a provision squad. Robdurbar 10:52, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

Merge pending

Oh, someone's created this page. I had a page in my userspace with provisional squads, but I was waiting for final squads to be announced before creating a new page. Might as well merge now. Oldelpaso 18:29, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

Age/DoB

I've changed some ages to the date of birth as I think it has less scope for ambiguity. Oldelpaso 18:05, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree we should avoid ambiguity, but ages allow easier scanning. Perhaps we could state in the lead that age is the age of the player on the date of the first game of the World Cup (June 9th)? HornetMike 20:17, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

Whichever is used, it should be consistent throughout. I'll hold fire on changing any more for now. All parameters should be listed according to what is correct on the day the tournament starts. Oldelpaso 22:47, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

Agreed that we should either one or the other, not both. Looking back at pages for older tournaments, 2002 is all ages, 1998 is a combination of both, whilst ones before that seem to be predominantly DOB. As I said, I think age is better. Looking at the 1990 list, each time I had to do a bit of addition to work out how old the player was when the tournament occurred. Obviously with age you don't get that problem, although obviously requires more work in its implementation. HornetMike 23:52, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

Whoops, just noticed this discussion! Can I suggest that we add DOBs for now (as I've done for the England squad), as they would be easier to convert to an age than it would be to calculate a DOB from an age? Then we could change them fairly quickly if we wanted to. Starfighter Pilot 10:10, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Since the World Cup lasts a month, some players' ages will change, so the DOB format works best.
Slumgum | yap | stalk | 21:20, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Well, as you say with caps below - if we do age we can just use June 9th as the watershed, and add something to the lead saying "as of beginning of tournament." HornetMike 06:26, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Caps

The amount of caps a player has will change throughout the comp. It's probably best not to include any World Cup (2006) matches. June 9 should be the watershed on that figure. I reckon.
Slumgum | yap | stalk | 21:20, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Squad list templates

Please note that in addition to the {{nat fs player}} templates, which have been put in use on all other World Cup squad lists, there exists an alternate version, {{nat fs g player}}, which includes a Goals column. This version has not been used on the past squad lists for want of information. However, the version with Goals column may be more suitable here, since the Goals column for present players should be more readily accessible when the squad lists are compiled. Please consider.

In any case, let's apply one template consistently throughout this article. --Pkchan 05:44, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Giuly

Why isn't Ludovic Giuly in the French squad?? Arnemann 12:05, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Probably due to the recent form of Franck Ribéry. A decision bearing some similarity to England selecting Aaron Lennon ahead of Shaun Wright-Phillips. Oldelpaso 12:40, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

REMINDER this is a page for discussing the article of world cup squads, not the actual squads. If you want to discuss who is in and out of a certain squad there are numerous websites and forums to do so, but please do not do so here. Batman2005 01:11, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Player's Clubs

A number of players will be moving clubs in the time between the end of the season and the beginning of the World Cup. Examples are Michael Ballack (Bayern to Chelsea) and Cory Gibbs (a Dutch club to Charlton). Now generally contracts expire 1st of June, so these players will be the property of their new clubs when the World Cup starts. Should we attribute them to them, though, when they've never trained, let alone played for them. HornetMike 00:14, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Yes, it would be appropriate once those players have officially become members of their new clubs to list them as members of that club. As they are legally (through a binding contract) a member of the new club. Batman2005 01:10, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

It is difficult to define.

Such as

• Henrik Larsson. He has been signed a pre-contract in April, to play for Helsingborgs IF next season.
• Luis Antonio Valencia, he is on loan from Valencia CF , should be Valencia instead of Recreativo Huelva
• Gyan Asamoah will end his loan period at Modena F.C., and return to Udinese
• Tim Howard will loaned to Everton F.C. from Manchester United F.C.Matthew hk 07:46, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
• Rui Marques, on loan to Hull City from Leeds UnitedMatthew hk 08:21, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
• Naohiro Takahara, transferred to Eintracht Frankfurt from Hamburger SV in May
• Hidetoshi Nakata, on loan to Bolton Wanderers from ACF Fiorentina. Matthew hk 11:16, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
• And many player released in the 2005/2006 seasons. Matthew hk 09:42, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

I am afraid sticking to a player's legal contractual status as at the start of the tournament may be too arbitrary and may render it meaningless. Unlike the Caps and Goals column, the Club field of a player isn't expected to change a lot during the tournament, so it isn't worthwhile to use an arbitrary date (in this case, the start of tournament) to minimise maintenance effort.

The Club field, in my opinion, is most meaningful to a reader when it describes the club the player has been playing for in the lead-up to his world cup selection. In general this will mean the club for which the player has played his last FIFA-recognised club-level match. Sometimes exception has to be made to this general rule if it doesn't properly reflect the player's club affiliation: for instance, a player who has already retired from the professional game for, say, a whole season should be described as "Retired" or "No club". It would be the biggest mistake if we affiliate a player with a Club for whom he has never played a game before the World Cup. --Pkchan 10:35, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

That's reasonable. One possibility is that if there is an official listing somewhere, we could go with that. Otherwise I like Pkchan's suggestion. --Robdurbar 10:42, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

i agree Pkchan, i suggest to use the club which the player playing in 2005/2006 season (second half). Matthew hk 11:21, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Ballack has earned the participation at the world cup wearing the shirt of Bayern Munchen, Gibbs wearing the ADO Den Haag's shirt, Nakata was playing for Bolton...so where's the problem? This is the sense of the club column...The last team where a player played the last season before the world cup. --necronudist 12:06, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Well I think it's a bit odd to have players credited primarly to a club they've only been represnting for a couple of months and are not contracted to permanently. Fair enough if they've been on a season-long loans but Marques only played one game for Hull, Carson a bit more - 9. They are far more Leeds/Liverpool players than Hull/Wednesday. Sorry for reverting without seeing this first, but I still think it's a bit bizarre. HornetMike 16:24, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

I would agree that short-term loans (say, shorter than 3 months, or fewer than 10 games played) which does not significantly affect a player's run-up to the World Cup may make another valid exception to the "last club game" rule that I have proposed above, but we may have to be flexible here and allow the genuinely significant loan spells, no matter how short, to be reflected here.

On a lighter note, Mike, I would suggest that perhaps your edits sound more serious than they are because you have used edit summaries which suggest that you may have been ignorant of the discussion here. Now that everybody is on the same page, this won't be more of a problem in the future. --Pkchan 16:42, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Pkchan on some of his points regarding the listing of clubs. However, players like Michael Ballack and Cory Gibbs who played in the run up to the world cup with one team but are not currently with that same team should be listed with their new team for the sake of truth and consistency. The goal of wikipedia is to present a truthful and accurate representation of facts and to keep those facts current. If we're truly keeping these pages factual, then Ballack must be credited now to Chelsea and Gibbs to Charlton, Howard to Everton, etc. Another approach would be to provide a disclaimer at the start saying "players clubs as of then end of the previous season" or something to that affect. Or to change them to the appropriate clubs and say "clubs accurate as of June 9." I can see it going both ways, but I think for the sake of truth we need to either list the club that the player is with currently and cut that off at the start of the tournament. Or list the club from the previous season and indicate that somewhere at the top of the page so that when a reader comes to this page and sees Ballack listed as a Bayern Munich player rather than a Chelsea player, it won't be misleading. Batman2005 16:51, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

How about including both clubs? At least for the on-loan players. Punkmorten 20:04, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Yeah Pkchan, despite starting this debate I wasn't aware of the developments that had taken place. That's why I went on and edited seemingly contrary to what had been decided. HornetMike 18:39, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Ok, so you think it's more logical to write the club who OWNS (don't know if it's the right term) a player rather than a club where the player PLAYED for the season (or maybe the last months)??? oh well... personally, I think it is crazy. However, let's see the FIFA's official site...is this a bad idea? --necronudist 20:13, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Consistency with FIFA sounds sensible. The official announcement of squads is on Thursday 18th, so we'll have to wait until then I suppose. Oldelpaso 20:32, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

I too think consistency with FIFA sounds sensible. I don't however think its crazy to or illogical to put the club that legally owns the contract of the player. Michael Ballack IS NOT a Bayern Munich player anymore, to list him as such would be incorrect. He is a Chelsea player and from today on will always be credited as a Chelsea player until he goes elsewhere. My intent is only to preserve the truth of the article, rather than posting something that's false just because he "played" for Bayern in the run up to the World Cup. While true, it's not true that he is still a Bayern player. Batman2005 20:55, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Michael Ballack signed a contract with Chelsea today, however his contract with Bayern Munich runs out on June 30. All contracts of German Bundesliga players end on a June 30. Not a day earlier, unless Bayern decided to terminate the contract, Ballack will become a Chelsea player no sooner than July 1. -- Jinxo 21:32, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Something must have been done then, because unless i'm mistaken, under FIFA regulations, a player can't be contracted to play for two clubs at the same time and he signed a contract with Chelsea. So i'm thinking they terminated the rest of the contract. 75.2.42.82 22:37, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Couldn't it simply be that Ballack signed a contract starting July 1, so it would not conflict with his current Bayern contract? No one here in Germany is so far considering Ballack a Chelsea player yet. This might, of course, be simply because we're not used to players changing teams in May.-- Jinxo 00:05, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

The truth of the article? and what is the truth of the article? Should we update EVERY world cup squads' page of EVERY world cup to update it and saying: "hell no, man! burruchaga retired ages ago!". for this, I think it's crazy, because in every serious sport site or sticker album or anything world cup-related is posted the last club where a player played in the last season before the world cup. just to avoid discussions like this :-) However, until 18, we should refer to the BBC news cited on every nation's squad. Just a suggest. --necronudist 23:09, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

OK, use two clubs at present, (i have added and some marked in free agent), just avoid someone editing and revert many times, just like Ballack. Until it is solved, please don't revert them. Matthew hk 07:33, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

I am not sure whether it is a good idea to list two clubs together in the Club field even as a provisional solution. It may have given the wrong impression of co-ownership (a practice widely in place in Italy).

Re: Truth. As Necronudist has put it, we can't keep on updating the players' club affiliation for ever, even (to an absurd extent) after the World Cup has finished; we must draw a line somewhere and decide that there shall be no more update after that. The issue here is concerned solely with where to draw the line. Contractual ownership as of start of tournament is a reasonable line, but as I have argued not good enough, as it may in case of end-of-season transfer fails to reflect properly the player's affiliation in the lead-up to the World Cup. (And btw, you may be surprised to find that Wikipedia is about verifiability, not truth.) --Pkchan 07:42, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

How about instead of using "Bayern Munich/Chelsea" putting in "Bayern Munich -> Chelsea" and putting a note at the end or beginning stating that the arrow denotes players who have signed a contract with a new club for the next season before the WOrld Cup started. -- Jinxo 09:35, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

---

Let me try to clarify my proposal with a view to make it workable for the loan spells:

• The general rule is a player should be described with the club for whom he has played his last club game before the World Cup.
• Exceptions to this rule are:
  1. If the last club game concerned was played before 1st January, 2006, then a case can be made to describe the player as "Retired" (think Roger Milla in '90), "Free Agent" or any new club he has signed for after that date (think Adrian Mutu if a World Cup was to be held in 2005) where appropriate (note however that a lengthy ban, Rio Ferdinand-style, may not be a sufficient ground for this exception).
  2. If the last club game concerned was played during a loan spell, annotate the lender club by means of the |other= optional field, like this:

No.	Pos.	Player	Date of birth (age)	Caps	Club
	3MF	Lionel Scaloni (on loan from Deportivo)	16 May 1978	5	West Ham

• (note that this exception does not apply where the last game played concerned is not during a loan spell, so no need to address Everton for Tim Howard.)

If there is consensus on this proposal then we can adopt it onto the current page. --Pkchan 08:05, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

---

If you can verify it, then it should be put in as verified. I can verify that Tim Howard and Michael Ballack play for Everton and Chelsea now. I think rather than listing two clubs we should wait until thursday when FIFA releases the final squads and go with what they've got, or go with what they're affiliated with when commentators are talking about them during the cup. If Ballack is listed as Bayern Munich here, but all the commentators and press during the cup are talking about him and Chelsea, you just know an edit war is going to start with people changing it to what they hear on TV and read in the papers. So wait till FIFA releases the squads on Thursday, do what they've got. Then if we need to change it during the tournament we can. Regarding whether or not to go back and change all the past world cup squads. As i'm sure you know, that's a stupid idea. The point being that the clubs on those pages were accurate at the time of the world cup. If Ronaldinho is transferred to Manchester United in 4 years we would never come back and change one of these pages to reflect that. To believe that was my intent is stupid. My intent is ONLY to present an accurate representation of fact, which means that EVEN THOUGH Michael Ballack played ALL year for Bayern Munich, he now plays for Chelsea. EVEN THOUGH Tim Howard played ALL year for Manchester United, he now plays for Everton. I'll go with the consensus as that's how this page works, but if we're truly interested in the accurate representation, then some editors need to accept that it means that Ballack would be listed as being a member of Chelsea, even thoug he'd played with Bayern all year. Batman2005 12:04, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Please bear in mind that apart from this article, there are many other squad lists on Wikipedia. The same criteria of inclusion on this article should be applied consistently across all these pages in order to maintain the standard here. Placing such a high importance to the present club that a player is playing for may be a good idea in the short run but will be an invitation of troubles in the long run -- do you, for instance, go back to 1986 FIFA World Cup (squads) and change Jorge Burruchaga's club affiliaton to "Retired"? Somewhere we have to draw a line and this is what my proposal aims to address. On an encyclopedia, which Wikipedia claims itself to be, it is the long-run maintenance that we all editors ought to be thinking about. --Pkchan 15:38, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, stick with official FIFA listings --Robdurbar 12:58, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Do we have access to the official FIFA listing for every World Cup? See my point re: other squad list pages above. --Pkchan 15:38, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Another ambiguity is Grzegorz Rasiak, who is credited to Southampton. Now, he signed for them at the end of the season, but he spent from January to April on loan from Spurs. Do we have credited to Southampton or do we say Southampton (on loan from Tottenham). I think this system brings up a number of problems... HornetMike 17:36, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

I expect that official listings will exist (but not necessarily online) for most World Cups, and if available they should take priority. If unavailable then another verifiable published source should be used and cited. That way we can blame the source and not each other ;-)Oldelpaso 19:01, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Oh for gods sake. NO we don't go back and change players from the 1986 or any other world cup to say "retired." You leave the club as it was DURING THE CUP. If Steven Gerrard is with Liverpool DURING the cup, and then is transferred the day the cup ends, then his club stays Liverpool, as the subject of the article is no longer current. Which is why I say to establish a cut off date. By June 8th any transfers/loans such as Howard to Everton, Ballack to Chelsea are included, any after that date aren't! Batman2005 19:23, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

In the main, I agree with Pkchan. If my understanding is correct, the majority of players' contracts run to the end of June.[1] In the case of Michael Ballack, he could not play for Chelsea until 1 July (probably) without a special dispensation from both Bayern Munich with whom he is still contractually obliged (probably), as well as the Bundesliga with whom he will still be registered (probably). Waiting for the FIFA listings makes the most sense in order that we may take our lead from them as it is their competition. -- Alias Flood 19:32, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Apparently (according to someone above) they're relased on the 18th. --Robdurbar 20:04, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

First of all, I'm not sure that every article of the past world cups have the clubs updated to the date of beginning of the world cup. Secondly, as I always say: KEEP IT SIMPLE! why should we update every trasfer in the world cup period?? D'you know if Mateus (Angola) have signed a contract in this days with another angolan team?? Well, maybe there's some angolan wikipedian here, but...! You see, we should adopt the most simple convention to KEEP IT SIMPLE, Ballack has played an ENTIRE season with Bayern Munchen and has earned the cap with this shirt, why should he be listed as a Chelsea player?? He's capped as a Bayern Munchen player! The "mark" should be at the end of this (past) season and not at the beginning of the world cup. Am I wrong? --necronudist 22:23, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

BECAUSE HE DOESN'T PLAY FOR BAYERN MUNICH ANYMORE!!! That's the simple point. John O'Brien has been on the Chivas USA roster now for about a month and a half...but he didn't earn his spot on the world cup squad wit them...so do we go back to march and list him with ADO? Wait, he didn't play very much here...maybe it was with Ajax that he earned his spot? To avoid further arguing, lets just do as pkchan, batman and the others have said and wait to see what FIFA announces on

This isn't an answer, dear anonym, I've already replied to those statements. And you haven't answered mine. =_= Hope there'll be someone who reads what I write. --necronudist 00:09, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

Why should he be listed as a Chelsea player you ask? I don't know, I think saw somewhere a couple days ago where he signed with Chelsea, seems to me that he plays for them now, making him a Chelsea player. If you put the cut off date at the end of the season, rather than when the world cup starts, then what you have is FALSE information. FALSE information, like listing Ballack as a member of Bayern Munich now, isn't what wikipedia is about. 75.2.42.82 18:16, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

Whether he is still a Bayern Munich player or not, none of us can tell a 100% because we don't know the contractual status for sure. Just because he signed with Chelsea doesn't mean he is a Chelsea player right away. You know, you can sign contracts that do not start right after the signature. As I stated, it is very likely the contract starts July 1st since his Bayern Munich contract runs til June 30 -- Jinxo 08:07, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

It isn't FALSE information, it's just a CONVENTION! However, if FIFA should adopt this convention...well, we'll know that FIFA gives false informations :-) --necronudist 18:53, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

Yeah! It's official: FIFA gives FALSE INFORMATIONS!! Ahahahah ok guys...nevermind...I win, you loose, I'm the king, I'm the master. I rule! :-P --necronudist 12:28, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

So what are we gonna do? Keep the present system, indicating every change of club or do we go strictly by FIFA? I must say I rather like the indication of an confirmed club changes until June 9th, not because it gives my team three more players at the World Cup (*g*), but because it adds detail and is also an indication that if a player changes clubs for the upcoming season he does so not because of a good World Cup. -- Jinxo 22:09, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm good with whatever system is favored by the majority. Whether it's establishing a cut off date, or going with FIFA, or listing both teams, etc. I do think though that whatever we do we should indicate how the teams are listed in the lead in paragraph. For example "All clubs, caps and goals accurage as of <date, list, FIFA, etc.>." Just to help us avoid edit wars during the actual cup when people start changing goals and stuff like that. 00:28, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

I like the go with FIFA approach personally, whether they're accurate or not. --Robdurbar 08:08, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

I dislike the FIFA approach specifically because its inaccurate. I think we should make an effort to print accurate information. I'm ok with the Ballack thing, as its not been announced when his contract will actually start, or if it has already. But Tim Howard? Why start printing inaccurate information? Batman2005 10:52, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

If we are shooting for accuracy, then our current approach of indicating both the player's current and future club seems like the best way to go, since it gvies an accurate description of where the player played during the season and where his performance that year will lead him club-wise. However, simply sticking with FIFA is the easier way to go, since we don't need to stick our heads out and look for confirmed club changes. -- Jinxo 14:51, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Damn...Stop it man!! It isn't inaccurate! it's just a convention! Used in every good football stuff. You can disagree but you can't say is inaccurate! A convention could not be inaccurate, because it's just a convention! Sto, stop it please. However, I think that best solutions would be the indication of the date of accuracy or the indication of players on loan from some club. Obviously it would be better the first, in order to mantain the FIFA convention. --necronudist 13:15, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Goodness necronudist it seems like you need a hug. I can say its inaccurate, because it is...so, really, if you don't like it...piss off. It's obvious you're not a Chelsea fan, so i'll pay no further attention to your posts. Batman2005 01:00, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Straw poll

How about setting up a straw poll to gather consensus here? There appear to be four choices in front of us:

1. Use a player's contractual club affiliation as at the start of the tournament, discarding loan deals.
2. Use a player's contractual club affiliation as at the start of the tournament, taking into account loan deals in effect as at that date.
3. Follow the FIFA list.
4. Pkchan's proposal dated 08:05, 16 May 2006 (UTC) above (now bounded by 2 horizontal bars for your easier reference).

--Pkchan 15:54, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Support option 1:

Support option 2:

Support option 3:

1. Weak support if option 4 fails. --Pkchan 15:54, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
2. Support, however it would be useful to put a footnote mentioning if a player has agreed to sign with a new club after the WC. It'd hopefully stop a lot of edits and re-edits, and give all the information. aLii 16:20, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
3. with footnotes per aLii Oldelpaso 16:29, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
4. Support with footnotes or another means to denote a player having agreed upon a transfer -- Jinxo 16:34, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
5. Support - option 4 is good too but does not take into account people such as Ballack, where the issue is not a loan but a transfer. --Robdurbar 16:42, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
6. Support without any footnotes or similar. In future a person will expect to see what was the last club a player played with (= "with what club he earned the cap?"). Founding Chelsea for Ballack will be useless in any way. --necronudist 18:03, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
7. Support with footnotes to denote players who may be referred to during the tournament as playing for a club that differs from what is listed (Howard, Ballack, etc.). I can see an edit war happening between people who don't bother to look at the talk page and those of us who have talked about this for awhile now.
8. Support with footnotes. Sebastian Kessel ^Talk 20:36, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
9. Support, with footnotes. Although that FIFA reference is only "version 1". Slumgum | yap | stalk | 00:45, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
10. Support I suggest that we write into the introductory paragraph something long the lines of, "Information regarding players' clubs is in accordance with that shown by FIFA and, in all probability, relates to a player's situation in the 2005-06 season." I also suggest that we put a preceding comment in the introduction asking editors to refer to the talk page. At least then, we will know that we have done all that we are able. -- Alias Flood 01:18, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
11. Support w/footnotes. In the future someone will want to see with what club he earned the cap Give me break! In the future someone will want to see his current club. Listing him with his past team and providing a footnote to his current team is the best solution, get over your bias and realize it. 68.78.15.99 13:07, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

If you want to know his current club you search for him, not for a world cup squads page! It's totally useless! So, like I said, we should footnote every world cup squads page to say "no no he don't play anymore for <team>, he's retired! don't search for his current club here!". What a bullshit...however, not gonna reply you anymore. And not gonna posting here anymore. And not gonna watching this page anymore. Do what you want, write his youth club if you want. I will not take part to this shit. We're discussing and a man named Ed is editing all the clubs updating them to the next season...That's all ridiculous. Here is just like a nursery. You folks are only stabbing wikipedia in the back. Sorry. --necronudist 21:24, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Dude, calm down! You're being ridiculous! Batman2005 21:33, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

1. Support this option ONLY with footnotes to denote current club rather than last seasons club. I also think that somebody needs to remind necronudist what civility is, he's totally off the chain. Clearly can't take someone disagreeing with him about his points, pretty juvenile if you ask me. 75.2.7.200 00:21, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

comment At least for Germany the current club is the one the player played for last season (i.e. this season, because the season ends June 30th), is there no one who can clarify this for the rest of the world, when do contractual seasons end elsewhere? Like Matthew hk I am also assuming that the rest of the world does it in the same way, beacuse FIFA has instituted international transfer windows. Because if e.g. Ballack were to join Chelsea before July 1st he would not be able to leave on a free transfer, because he still has a contract with Bayern Munich. And, btw, whoever it is, who is editing the current version replacing the so far used version should stop that, constant reverting is painstakingly annoying. -- Jinxo 09:18, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

1. Support. - Darwinek 08:52, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Support option 4:

1. Support. Pkchan 15:54, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
2. Support FIFA list smoetimes have mistake, just look 2002 version Matthew hk 07:08, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

comment All contract should effective on 1st July, becasuse of International transfer windows. It is after the start of World Cup, 9th June. Matthew hk 01:26, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Poll discussion

Note from Wikipedia:Straw polls:

Wikipedia is not an experiment in democracy. Its primary method of finding consensus is discussion, not voting. In difficult cases, straw polls may be conducted to help determine consensus, but are to be used with caution and not to be treated as binding votes.

Just as long as we bear that in mind when deciding on the outcome of this. --Robdurbar 16:40, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

OK, so I think there's little doubt that a concensus was reached, but looking at the actual page it is not being inforced. Ballack at Chelsea, etc.. I see below that the FIFA information is lacking for two players (I don't count the loan situations), I guess special cases can be made for them. I would be willing to do my bit in watching and reverting this page, but I haven't done any work on it as of now. Are any of the main contributors willing/bothered enough to correct the data? aLii 10:46, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

I have just changed the two group B players affected to show what sort of thing I intend for the rest. Does that look OK? I'm taking a softly softly approach, since the topic evidently evokes strong emotions. Oldelpaso 18:28, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

About FIFA list

FIFA use 05/06 club,

• Ballack Bayern Munich [2]
• Henrik LARSSON Barcelona [3]
• POBORSKY Ceske Budejovice (actually one year loan form Sparta, correct)[4]
• Naohiro TAKAHARA Hamburger SV (GER)[5]
• 23 Vladimir STOJKOVIC Crvena Zvezda [6]
• 16 Luis VALENCIA Recreativo Huelva (ESP) (6 months loan from Valencia, correct) [7]
• 3 GYAN Asamoah Modena (ITA) [8]
• HOWARD Manchester Utd. (ENG)[9]
• Hidetoshi NAKATA Bolton [10]
• RUI MARQUES Hull City [11]
• SAVIOLA Sevilla [12]
• Lionel Scaloni West Ham United [13]
• [Zvonimir Vukic] Partizan [14]
• LANDREAU Nantes [15]
• CANEIRA Sporting[16]
• MANICHE Chelsea (ENG[17]
• POSTIGA Saint-Etienne [18]
• LAZARIDIS Birmingha [19]
• Tudor Siena[20]
• VONLANTHEN NAC Breda[21]

Only makes some mistake/exception

• Bridge Chelsea[22]
• JOAO RICARDO[23]
• Akwa [24]
• Skoko Wigan (actually on loan to Stoke City)[25] Matthew hk 01:59, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

International goals

Here is to gather your consensus on this: do you think that we should include the player's internal goal on the squad lists for the 2006 World Cup? Is such information readily verifiable and easy to maintain? (the same standard as number of caps, above, should apply here) If so it won't take much effor to switch to a template with that column visible. --Pkchan 11:28, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

I would be all for it. However, this information is pretty hard to come by. Whenever I am researching new signings for my club team, I find about three or four different numbers when it comes to international goals. In Germany we usually use the "kicker World Cup Special" (a special edition of a sports magazine) as a reference which seems pretty accurate. Once it's out (May 23) I could insert the data using the magazine as a reference. I don't know whether FIFA will put information regarding international goals on their page, if they did this would, of course, be the reference point. -- Jinxo 08:52, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

FIFA are publishing an official players list on Thursday 18th, but there will be an updated one issued on Thursday 25th which will apparently contain players' caps and goals. It might be worth waiting for that and then correcting caps and adding goals from that. Starfighter Pilot 18:42, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

It appears that the FIFA list doesn't come with this information either. Let's forget about it for the time being until someone finds a reliable and verifiable source for this then. --Pkchan 15:41, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Here we are, the updated list has been issued, and is correct as of 25/5/06, I presume. It includes the caps and goal tallies of every player involved in the World Cup. It is found here. What do we think then, should we add goals or not? I have no idea how easy that would be to do or how long it would take and there will be a fair few zeroes for most goalkeepers and many defenders. But, it would provide more useful information to readers. I think we need to come to a consensus on it fairly soon. Starfighter Pilot 14:34, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

We have to go over the caps anyways, so ading goals is no big deal, I think. However, the question remains, should we use this list as final or are we going to keep adding caps and goals (a number which will fluctuate immensely with all participants in the next couple of days)? -- Jinxo 15:37, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

I have switched the England squad to the with goal version for trial. As you may see from the diff, it's easy to make the switch and to extend it to other squads.

If you guys at last decide against showing the goals column, feel free to revert. --Pkchan 15:49, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Squad sorting

Do we really want to sort the squads by number rather than by position? I myself am rather unsure about what to do. Both ways have their advantages. -- 84.57.87.2

I would say we list them by squad number. After all, not only is squad number the first column, but it would suggest that the team's first XI is listed first. I believe previous World Cup squads have been listed by number as well (e.g. 2002 FIFA World Cup (squads)) so that's good for consistancy. Starfighter Pilot 12:46, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Agreed, lets list the squads by number rather than position. Referencing will be much easier this way as well. If somebody logs on during the Portugal game to discover who number 21 is, it's much easier to scroll down by number than to look for the position for each player then look over for the number. Batman2005 16:44, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Squad numbers are supposed to be the official ordering of any team/squad. In addition, sorting by squad number serves a very important function here: to facilitate checking against repeated/missing squad numbers. --Pkchan 16:47, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Sorting by squad number in my opinion gives no useful information to the reader, it's just a de-facto sorting method. Sorting by position actually helps one to see the make-up of the squad more easily, e.g. whether a squad has 4 or 5 strikers. Both the French/German version and the current one employed on this page have all the information, but it's easier to get it from their tables. It's also more aesthetically pleasing :) aLii 16:57, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree. Much like in other language wikipedias, where they also use different colours. Mariano(t/c) 07:56, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Yeah! We should clean our asses with conventions! =_= --necronudist 11:04, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

A squad number is simple, unique, indisputable and definite. Player positions are sometimes a matter of opinion, versatile players have more than one position, and positions can change throughout a tournament.
Slumgum | yap | stalk | 13:56, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Arguably squad number does give the reader the "first team" of the nation as well, as they're generally given numbers 1-11. So it does give some (sort of) information to the reader! I support using them for the reasons Slumgum gave... HornetMike 04:10, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree that sorting by squad numbers makes the most sense. It's the first column and will usually have a lot to say about the first team. If someone wants to find an individual player, it isn't that difficult to glance along the column or search separately. -- Alias Flood 04:28, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

See my comment below under 'Consistency'; issues like this really challenge the boundaries of a conventional wiki. What I think we need to do is invent a Wiki enhancement that supports sortable structured data while allowing for the same tracked edits that we know and love. Maybe such exists and I just don't know it.- PhilipR 16:35, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Scope of the article

Would it be better to include standby players, the selection process etc. in this article, or would that be better included in x in the 2006 FIFA World Cup articles (articles in the same vein as the Olympic articles e.g. Norway at the 2006 Winter Olympics)? At first I thought the former, but now I'm not so sure. Oldelpaso 20:03, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

I think standby players should stay until 24hrs before the teams first game as they're still travelling with the squad.

I think keeping them on until June 8th or whenever is 24 hours before a game is a good plan. I wouldn't say they're still traveling with the squad in all cases though, especially with teams like the United States if 24 hours before a game somebody goes down with an injury, it's highly possible that they would play that first game with only 22 available players, as it would take some time to get another player to Germany. Would be quite easier for the european squads to bring somebody in though. Batman2005 20:57, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

I've removed them going with the above comments. Mark272 22:18, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

It's possible for squads to change as late as Tuesday June 13; 24 hours before Group H teams' first match. I think you should have removed only Group A's standby players.  SLUMGUM  yap  stalk  23:46, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Consistency

It would be nice to have all the squads of a country listed by year, as well as this, but then the information is duplicated, and bound to have inconsistencies. To solve this I was thinking about having an article/template for each country/year combination, and then include these in the listing page. I gave it a try at 2006 FIFA World Cup (squads)/Templated, where the Argentine table has been replaced by an article named Argentine squad for the 2006 FIFA World Cup, and then included using the {{: including command. Comments? Mariano(t/c) 08:10, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm not really sure I understand, but I don't think we should go creating individual pages for each country's squad. --Robdurbar 08:21, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Let me explain you with an example you might undesrtand. When you set the Argentine squad for the 2006 FIFA World Cup for deletion, you added the line {{Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Argentine squad for the 2006 FIFA World Cup}} to the Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Log/2006 May 19 article, yet in that article you can see the content of the voting article, because the {{}} includes the content rather than make a link to it.

In the same way, if we have the squad for the information of the Argnetine squad for 2006 in an article, say Argentine squad for the 2006 FIFA World Cup, then the content of this article can be included in any other article that might needed, say Argentina national football team, 2006 FIFA World Cup (squads), and a future Argentine squads at the FIFA world cup.

Therefore, any change in the contento of the Argentine 2006 squad will be visible in all those 3 articles, keeping the consistency, and saving space in the Wikipedia. This scheme is used in the French and German wikipedias (see Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football#The World Cup in other languages in Wikipedia) Mariano(t/c) 09:13, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

If I understand your intent correctly, this sounds like an overlap between article space and template space, which I'd have reservations about. Can this not be solved by using templates? Oldelpaso 09:50, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Would it not be proper pracitce to create a template:Argentina squad (etc.) to do this? So is the idea that we can then create a page entitled 'Argentina squads at the world cup' to collate the info on one page. Might be a good idea, though I worry that the over-use of templates is a bit daunting to newbies and can be very off putting --Robdurbar 10:00, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Well, the idea of creating an article instead of a template is that the information by itself can be an Article. The category part and other special parts that are not desired when used as a template can be hided with the use of <noinclude>. See for instance the french version of the 2006 German team; we can have navigable articles of the teams by country and by year, and at the same time use these articles as templates for list of articles.

In any case, even if with templates, I think it is necesary to make use of inclusion to keep a single version of the squads throughout the Wikipedia. A newbie would see only an edit sign within a list for a given article, as in the deletion log pages, and could directly edit it without even knowing he is editing another article. Mariano(t/c) 10:10, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Interestingly, the French page is much nicer anyway; can we copy that design???? --Robdurbar 12:39, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Well, it is GFDL after all, right? Check the German version as well. In any case, we should first settle some standards, especially if we are to use such squad-articles as I promosed. Mariano(t/c) 13:30, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

I am afraid this new way of organisation will introduce more, not less, inconsistencies. The current organisation, where every list is an article, has the beauty of simplicity: every such list is an unit per se, and it is much easier to maintain at least the consistency within that article. In the new organisation, if you want to update a list (say, to introduce the International Goals column), you'll have to update up to 32 articles, which may then affect up to 32 national squad lists, which may then affect.... There are also many <noinclude>s to worry about.

If you think that all such squad list pages ought to be of the same format and standard, think again. There may be lists which incorporates the Goals column, and lists which don't because such information simply isn't available. There may be lists where the club's nation's flag isn't shown. There may, of course, be lists which affiliate with a player's pre-tournament club or with the FIFA-sanctioned club or the ACCURATE club. And the ACN lists are much briefer. So an across-the-board standard/template may not be feasible. --Pkchan 15:36, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

This all actually started because of the one of the French editors suggesting that we use their format in WikiProject Football talk. I note that further up this page there is a discussion about how to display the squads - by squad number or not (Squad Sorting)? Personally I prefer the European way of colouring the players by position. It's easier on the eye and the information is much easier to see/understand. I can see the argument for squad numbers, but I think this presentation is the way forward... aLii 15:49, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

oh, I don't see that it needs to be seperate articles. The squad table is worth copying though. aLii 15:51, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

I see. Having followed the links at WikiProject Football talk I found that the squad lists on the French wikipedia are actually not transcluded together on a master, meta list (on which I have expressed my doubt) but exist separately with each other and linked up only with a template. This may be a good idea, as the current list is a bit too long. Sorting order: I still think sorting by squad number is better, but I can see the merit of sorting by position as well; please express your view at the thread above. But would someone please explain what do the columns "J. Buts Rot G/R Gelb" stand for on the fr page? There appears to be too much information to be effectively managed here. --Pkchan 16:38, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

I think discussing some of these matters at the project pages (Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football and Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football/National teams) may be advisable, as discussion of changes to squad templates potentially affects many more articles than this one. As for the columns, it looks as though they've only been partially translated from German, and are Games, Goals, Red, Red/Yellow (at a guess) and Yellow. Oldelpaso 16:48, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Given the lack of interest for the creation of squad templates to allow cross articles' consistency, I will delete the articles I created for illustrative purposes. Mariano(t/c) 08:57, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

As I expressed on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football to Mariano, it's a pity this effort was abandoned. Wikipedia as a whole is like a museum for ways to violate the don't repeat yourself (DRY) principle, whereby one piece of information should be one canonical place and changes to it should be automatically propagated to anywhere else using the same information. See Wikipedia:Content_forking. Mariano's proposal is, IMO, a very sensible and proactive way to overcome that. It may not be the only way; if others want to post Python scripts that could be used to synch up the different squad lists that too would be tremendous. But in general this is something we need to consider as diligent Wikipedians, how to represent this info in canonical form once and only once and propagate it to subordinate copies everywhere someone might be looking for it.

Truth be told, I'm not even sure a wiki is the best format for structured data like this. (E.g. see the sorting issue above; why can't I have my own view sorted by name, club, height, birthday,....?) What we really need is some sort of simple community-edited relational database with. Hmmm.... MediaWiki enhancement? DBiki? The mind starts racing. Cheers, PhilipR 16:32, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Article size

This page is 123 kilobytes long. This may be longer than is preferable; see article size.

Now that the squads are finalised (apart from last minute changes) can we not delete the notices "23 man squad named May 9" and the lengthy citeweb data attached to them? Also, I feel the standby squad members sections are not really needed unless a chage is actually made.
Slumgum | yap | stalk | 01:41, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree, I would remove all the introductory information for the squads (i.e. when it was announced, injuries, etc) as well as removing the alternate players. If a change is made we can easily reflect that on the page. Batman2005 01:59, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Stand-bys ought to be listed till 9th June really. But all that other stuff can go. --Robdurbar 08:32, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

I second the notion of keeping stand-bys til the day of the respective team's first match (if I remember correctly that's the cutt-off point, not June 9th per se, but I might be wrong there). After that they can all go. The citation I think can all simply go, becuase you could simply refer to the FIFA page or any other news site offering squad lists. -- Jinxo 09:17, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Yeah - so lets scrap the multiple links and link to a squad list portal? --Robdurbar 11:30, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm wondering if this perhaps is an argument for the templated version. --Robdurbar 17:06, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Cut it by group and a page for Players by club Matthew hk 02:15, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Refer to talk page sign

I'm pretty new to Wikipedia as such so forgive me if I am asking a silly question. Is there an opportunity to put a "Before editing please look at the talk page"-sticker for the article? I am getting tired of re-editing people like Ze Roberto or Jacek Krzynowek - who will change clubs/become free agents on July 1st when their contract with their German teams run out - just because people have either no idea of waht football contracts in Germany are made up of or simply desperatly search for something to edit. -- Jinxo 23:15, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

It is possible to place 'hidden text' explaining the situation, possibly at the top of each nation team's section. This is done by using <!-- the sign on the left. Any text after this sign would be 'hidden', but appear when someone comes to edit the page. All text is hidden untill the sign on the right --> and then it goes back to normal. --Robdurbar 09:57, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Players by club

It appears to be inaccurate. I count 13 for Juventus (including Igor Tudor on loan), not 11. Man Utd have 12 players listed, not 11. Barca 12 not 10. Somethin' ain't right.
Slumgum | yap | stalk | 00:32, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

It's quite complicated with players on loan, players being sold before the tournament, players with new contracts starting after the tournament, free agents, etc.

Any suggestions for a simple rule we could apply for choosing which club to list a player under? ed g2s • talk 13:13, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Go by FIFA list. Anything else is way too complicated. -- Jinxo 14:03, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Does the signing of Karl Svensson to Rangers FC, does that qualify them to have 5 players representing them at the World Cup? (the other four are; Marvin Andrews, Libor Sionko, Dado Prso and Hamed Namouchi)

Cory Gibbs

Cory Gibbs on the United States roster, i believe, has signed a contract with Charlton Athletic. Is that accurate? I saw that somewhere before. If so, we should probably include him in the list at the bottom of people joining new clubs. Batman2005 13:08, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Quite correct, he's going to Charlton if all goes well. Therefore I will add the following footnote: "Gibbs has signed a pre-contract with Charlton. However, the contract will only become valid if Gibbs gets a work permit." -- Jinxo 14:07, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Thanks Jinxo. Batman2005 16:28, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

You're welcome. Do we have any other players, where we have missed information about a club change. -- Jinxo 20:57, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

There's talk of Onyewu, Johnson and Dempsey going overseas, but nothing obviously till after the world cup, so i don't think anything will happen to affect the page as it is now.

When the footnote says: "Zé Roberto will become a free agent after the tournament ", shouldn't this be during the tournament? Punkmorten 07:43, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Vonlanthen out

Thigh trouble rules out Vonlanthen uefa.com 27 May 2006

It said Hakan Yakin replace him but, However, the Swiss Football Association are expected to wait as late as possible up until FIFA's deadline on 12 June before deciding whether to nominate the BSC Young Boys player as a replacement for Vonlanthen. Matt86hk talk 17:05, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

French Wikipedia World Cup players

Just to let you know that the French Wikipedia now has an article for every player in the World Cup, so if you're stuck for references you can look in le Wikipédia, and be sure to interwiki to the :fr page when the last red links get turned blue. The final player (in the inital squads) to get a page, just out of interest, was José Montiel, the 18yr old third choice Paraguay goalkeeper. --Talented Wikipedian 18:52, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Can you make sure the French Wiki article about José Montiel does not list him as a goalkeeper?. He is an attacking midfielder (I'm saying this because I don't understand french) ;) . Bruno18 18:23, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

It doesn't. In fact it doesn't list a position at all. Oldelpaso 19:11, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

He's rightly listed as midfield actually. My mistake. -not so talented this week. --Talented Wikipedian 09:17, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

I was so transfixed by looking for the text "gardien du but" that I completely missed "milieu de terrain". Must practise my French more often. Oldelpaso 09:32, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Players out through injury

Some teams have bullets under their squad saying "Player A was replaced by Player B becuase of..." whilst others have the same statement in a footnote after the replacement player. We really should standardise it. I prefer the latter option. Thoughts? HornetMike 16:38, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Angolan and Portugese players

Why suddenly do they have their full names, with the commonly used bit in bold? We don't jhave other players middle names so why these players? Is it a Portugese language thing? HornetMike 16:38, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

This appears to be a common problem across other squad pages as well, for both Spanish and Brazilian players; see also 1982 FIFA World Cup (squads)#Spain, 1982 FIFA World Cup (squads)#Brazil and 1986 FIFA World Cup (squads)#Brazil for instance. I don't know any Spanish/Portuguese at all so I am as puzzled as you are about such convention. Would anyone here with the knowledge please shed us some light? --Pkchan 17:05, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Well it looks awful. Someone did it on the Chelsea page a while back. I know Deco as Deco, not whatever his full name is and I'm sure people who look him up these list will search out Deco. Thats just an example. Don't what anyone else say it needs changing back. --Jimmmmmmmmm 22:20, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Agreed with Jimmmmmmmmmm. The names on the back of the shirts and names commentators use should be here; the article should be under the full name, however. --Robdurbar 09:37, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

I agree that it looks terrible. Let's use piping as before. Punkmorten 15:51, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Why has someone now done this to the Spain squad when it has been agreed it look terrible. It's been like that for ages. I'd revert it but I'm not sure exactly what link work for each player.--Jimmmmmmmmm 19:10, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Replacement

Where are the footnotes of replacement?

Gibbs, Yakin all removed? Matt86hk talk 12:18, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

• Edmílson >>> Mineiro
• Karel Poborský >>> Libor Sionko 12:23, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

FK Crvena Zvezda or Red Star Belgrade?

As per subject headline - this club should only be referred to by one name - but which? Poulsen 18:53, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Well the article is Red Star Belgrade, and that's the English name for the club. But over the past few years, I've only ever seen Crvena Zvezda used. In other words, I'm not sure!
 SLUMGUM  yap  stalk  23:25, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

As the english language wikipedia, perhaps we should refer to it as Red Star Belgrade. We don't refer to Bayern Munich as Bayern München. Mark272 12:01, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

My stand is also to call it by its English name. I have edited accordingly. The main thing is it's called the same, so if anybody disagrees we can always discuss further. Poulsen 12:51, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Good choice. btw: "Bayern München" translated to English is actually "Bavaria Munich", a name which is never used.  SLUMGUM  yap  stalk  14:05, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

It is stupid to change. If you likes, change all the name in English please. e.g. Dynamo, Nacional to National, Borussia to Prussia, Real to Royal, Köln. And if you know Arabs plaease translate Al-Arabi, Al Sadd, ,Al-Ahly, Al Rayyan.

Red Star Belgrade is informal name. Just like The Star Steaua Bucurest, the spark AC Sparta Praha, Spartak Moscow Matt86hk talk 14:22, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Should FC København then be refereted as FC Copenhagen. For people from countries, where the letter ø not are included in the alphabet, it is easier to say Copenhagen instead of København. kalaha 14:14, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Much more problem. München to Munich (Bayer München and Bayer Munich both used), Köln to Cologne, Milano to Milan, Kyiv to Kiev, Wien to Vienna, Praha to Prague. Matt86hk talk 07:32, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Nationality - Rules?

Are there any rules to how many players on a squad have to be citizens of the country they're playing for? Or are there any similar rules preventing a nation to enter the cup with a squad completely consisting of foreign players? Thanks. Lukas 02:35, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

There is a quota of foreigners - zero are allowed. Every player must have some valid claim to eligibilty. Generally, a player's nationality depends on citizenship of the country. Countries each have different laws (period of residency etc) for when/whether a person can apply for citizenship. However, another option is to look at a player's roots, e.g. a grandparent born abroad could qualify a player for another nation to that of his birth, whether he has citizenship of that country or not.

Rules are stricter than in the past - a player can now represent just one country (at senior internastional level) in his lifetime. Alfredo di Stefano for example, played for 3 different countries.

 SLUMGUM  yap  stalk  03:11, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the quick reply. I was confused by the flags next to the players names, which is as I now understand for the nationality of the club they play for and not their own nationality.Lukas 03:57, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

That actually raises a reasonable point. I'd prefer color-coding them by national league (different colors for, say, Italy, Spain, England, a country's domestic league, or another foreign league) or finding some other visual way to represent the country they play in besides the national flag. While most fans are going to realize that a national team's players are all from that nation, the flag is too strongly associated with the national side to make it a good visual cue for "Serie A" or "FA Premier League." I'd also like to use miniature club crests to represent the club like fr: Wikipedia seems to do. But it's likely that the national flags are too well-established for that purpose so I'm expressing this opinion with little hope that it would ever reach consensus. - PhilipR 16:11, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

(squads)?

Why is the "{squads}" in brackets? Shouldn't it be "2006 FIFA World Cup squads"? Trampikey 18:17, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

I shall note that this page has already been moved to 2006 FIFA World Cup squads. This may or may not be a more appropriate name; however, by this move we have created an inconsistency with scores of other World Cup pages all over the place -- see pages under Category:FIFA World Cup squads, Category:Football World Cup qualification and Category:2002 FIFA World Cup, and this inconsistency is more undesirable than having one or two pages with arguably a better name.

I'll be reverting the move unless we have opposition here, or all other pages have been renamed consistently. --Pkchan 17:41, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

The name without parentheses looks better to me. I would support moving all pages to this form. Conscious 08:46, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Looking for references

I'm looking for references confirming that the Poles Kosowski and Bąk will become free agents after the tournaments. I was able to find a reference saying Kosowski is leaving the Saints, but it doesn't say he's going free. Any help appreciated, with references this could be promoted to a featured list. Conscious 08:46, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

If they leave their clubs after the tournament, should they need a footnote at all? Oldelpaso 17:11, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

May be not. (That's a majority of references, btw). Conscious 15:52, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Requested move

2006 FIFA World Cup (squads) → 2006 FIFA World Cup squads – IMO the parentheses are not needed, this is not a disambiguation. The was some level of disagreement about this move, so I want to ask for people's opinion. For consistency, I'm also proposing similar move of all articles in the Category:FIFA World Cup squads.

Survey

Add *Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your opinion with ~~~~

• Support as nominator. Conscious 16:51, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
• Support.  SLUMGUM  yap  stalk  17:25, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
• Support on the condition that all other similarly named pages under Category:FIFA World Cup and sub-categories are moved in the same manner as well. --Pkchan 18:07, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
• Support as per nominator.HornetMike 19:14, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
• Support as per nom, no need for parenthesis. -- Alias Flood 23:55, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Discussion

Add any additional comments

How about the pages under Category:Football World Cup qualification? Do they fall within the scope of this RM as well? --Pkchan 17:00, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

I haven't included them, but it makes sense to rename them as well. Conscious 17:54, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

If so, support. --Pkchan 18:07, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

What about pages like 1986 FIFA World Cup (qualification OFC)? What it should be renamed to? 1986 FIFA World Cup qualification (OFC)? 1986 FIFA World Cup OFC qualification? Conscious 18:19, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

1986 FIFA World Cup qualification (OFC) sounds better. --Pkchan 15:20, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Result: All moved

Discussion was clear: all moved. And Conscious has done most of the work. -- Kim van der Linde ^{at venus} 06:38, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Wrexham, England?

In records such as this WC squads page, should we flag Wrexham (Dennis Lawrence's club) as England or Wales? Wrexham A.F.C. is a Welsh club playing in England. It's a bit like AS Monaco playing in France, except that the relationship between Wales and England is obviously different. It has been changed back and forth a couple of times already.  SLUMGUM  yap  stalk  18:42, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

I think we should use the English flag. Wrexham is geographically located in Wales, but the club plays in the English league - and IMO, the flag should indicate the nationality of the league. --Badmotorfinger 23:51, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

I agree. Conscious 11:45, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Wrexham also play Welsh Cup. If someone form New Zealand Knights FC, i don't think we use Australia flag.

AS Monaco is different, Monaco is protectorate. Matt86hk talk 13:04, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

The issue is tricky indeed; btw, Monaco is independent. Conscious 14:52, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

I've added second flag; hopefully this will be acceptable for everyone. Conscious 15:23, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Being the editor who added the parameter to the template, I would like to note here that my original intention was to show the national flag of the league where the club plays. That's why I made the flags at 1992 European Football Championship (squads)#CIS either Russia or Ukraine because there was no CIS league. --Pkchan 16:58, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

There's no problem with CIS because, say, Spartak was in Russia and played in the Russian league in 1992. And now there is English flag next to link to Wrexham. Conscious 17:12, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

(edit conflict)

I actually think it worse to have two flags than one because that conveys more ambiguity than information. Anyway, how the flag is used is only a matter of convention. I would suggest that we strike a compromise here and then stick to the convention thus formed. Template talk:National football squad player is perhaps the more appropriate forum to discuss this; but since we have far more editors here, it's perhaps more efficient to discuss here first then cross-post the consensus back there.

My humble opinion is that national flag of the league where the club plays is the better option. Almost all clubs play in one and only one league (Champions League excluded) and almost all FAs with a national team to participate in the World Cup have one and only one league system, so there'll be little ambiguity. And indeed more often than not the league where a club plays would associate the club with the respective FA (that's why most people would describe Monaco as a French club), so this choice would be more descriptive as well. --Pkchan 18:42, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

I would support that (btw, is it true that Wrexham compete in both Welsh Cup and FA Cup? Cheaters... :) Conscious 18:45, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Well ask yoursleve if there was Berwick Rangers player at the world cup would you put it as Scotland or England. You'd put Scotland but Berwick is actually in England. Wrexham are a Welsh based English Football League side and should have an England flag by them.--Jimmmmmmmmm 19:13, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

The flags are there to represent the League they play in. Only an English flag should be used. HornetMike 19:13, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

As someone born in Wrexham, I just want to record that seeing the English flag next to the clubs' name strikes me as deeply wrong. I'm normally the most placid person imaginable, but in the past when I've seen cars go past flying the Cross of St George when I'm 20 miles west of the border, I've felt a strong urge to rip it off and ram it up the driver's insensitive a**** ! -- Arwel (talk) 00:09, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Whilst I sympathise with Arwel (and have amended my road atlas to avoid that route until 10th July), I agree that the flag should represent the league in which the club plays. -- Alias Flood 00:27, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Monaco don't have thier FA, and not a member of FIFA, but Wales have thir FA, so i added footnotes. Matt86hk talk 04:22, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Footnotes

I think, as a way of cleaning p the footnotes, we should stick them under the relevant country, and put players under the club they have recently signed for (If they've transferred) rather than their current/old club. Just a thought. Kingfisherswift 17:05, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Sounds like it could be a good idea. Oldelpaso 15:57, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Sorting footnotes by country, I mean. I still think the clubs should be those listed by FIFA. Otherwise all kinds of edit wars will ensue over definitions of when a player changes club. Oldelpaso 15:59, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

No no no no no. Absolutlry no! Put the footnotes under each team, fine, but don't change the clubs. This is not a current event, this is a page that can be looked back on in 10 years and tell you that Ballack was at Bayern when he was called up to the squad, for instance. How can he be a Chelsea player at the time of the 2006WC he's never played for them. Sorry but the club you were contacted to in 2005/2006 is the club the you represent.Jimmmmmmmmm 17:06, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Ballack a Chelsea player, Shevchenko not?

Why ist Michael Ballack listed as Chelsea player, but Andrij Shevchenko as a Milan player? Wasn't the general agreement to keep the clubs they belonged to at the beginning of the tournament and then put a footnote in for players who change affiliation on July 1st? --84.57.70.249 18:44, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Owen injury worthy of a footnote?

Is it really necessary to have a footnote stating that Owen was injured and sent home? In my opinion, this is borderline trivia and does not belong here. This applies to several other players as well, no reason to mention Owen specifically. Besides, if it's anything this article doesn't need, it's more footnotes... --Denvesletigeren 15:29, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Vidic is more necessary i think, but removed. So why Owen is necessary? Matt86hk talk 15:32, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

I've removed it. Injured or not, he was still part of the squad. Things that happened to him during the tournament can go in his article, not this one. Oldelpaso 15:55, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Caps and goals

I'm planning to correct all the caps listed here to the correct one from the official website of the World Cup, however which caps should I include? Their caps at the beginning of the World Cup or their caps at the end of the World Cup? I also planning to add international goals, once i've sorted out the caps.--Martin tamb 20:49, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Well no one gave their suggestion on this issue, I decided to changed the caps at the end of the World Cup just as the Official FIFA World Cup Website listed them. Any suggestion are welcomed.--Martin tamb 06:33, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

It would also be the best to change the players' clubs to the ones just before the cup. Conscious 07:04, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

I believe all of them already corrected. If you find any mistakes please point that out. - Martin tamb 07:09, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Head coach flags

Currently this article is inconsistant with the flags beside the names of the coaches, some have no flag when the coach is the same nationality as his team, and some show the flag even though the coach is the same nationality as his team (Germany, Costa Rica). Obviously the article should be consistant, but should the flags be there or not?

There is also a special case for Ilija Petković, who coached Serbia and Montenegro, he should definatly have a flag shown but I can't work out which, his article gives two conflicting answers which I have asked about on the article's talk page. - MTC 14:25, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

league representation

should a table for representation by league be added ?--Numberwang 12:44, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Dead link

During several automated bot runs the following external link was found to be unavailable. Please check if the link is in fact down and fix or remove it in that case!

• http://www.thefa.com/England/SeniorTeam/Players/Postings/2005/05/ScottCarson_profile.htm
  • In 2006 FIFA World Cup squads on 2011-05-26 02:02:09, 404 Not Found
  • In 2006 FIFA World Cup squads on 2011-06-13 17:30:44, 404 Not Found

--JeffGBot (talk) 17:31, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

I noticed that Rangers are in your representation by club section as having 5 international players at the tournament however when I counted through the squads team by team they actually only had 3 players at the tournament. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.30.95.202 (talk) 19:24, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

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