Talk:1925 24 Hours of Le Mans

Triennial Cup

Does anyone know why Charles Montier and Albert Ouriou are not listed in the Triennial Cup section, given that they took part in all 3 events? (albeit with only one finish). --kingboyk (talk) 03:59, 31 January 2020 (UTC)

The Triennial (and Biennial) cup(s) were for entrants (as opposed to drivers) and each entrant only recieved entries for the following year for cars which were classified (i.e. completed required distance). I'll also add that I'm not sure why it currently lists the order by the most laps over requirement over all three years, as this is not how it appears in Spurring's book. I'll shortly be putting a note on User talk:Philby NZ as I'm fairly sure he was the author of this part. A7V2 (talk) 07:13, 31 January 2020 (UTC)

That explains why Montier's team isn't listed. Thank you! --kingboyk (talk) 07:23, 31 January 2020 (UTC)

Hi there, when I wrote up the expanded detail, for the Triennial and Biennial cups sections I only included the cars that were eligible for the final round. Going from Spurring, of the original 33 starters in 1923, 30 finished to be eligible for the 1924 race. Of those 30 only 21 started in 1924. Montier was one of those, but his was one of the 12 cars that retired. This left only the 9 who were classified to contest the Triennial Cup in 1925, of which 7 of THEM turned up - hence only the seven entries in that section. (he quickly rechecks the page to be sure his arithmetic is right! Phew!) As regards the Biennial Cup, there were 14 finishers among the 41 starters and 8 of them were entered in 1925. Only four finished. Interestingly, there was only a single car - the winning #4 Lorraine-Dietrich entry - that was eligible to win both the Triennial and Biennial Cups. Hope this clarifies: in summary, Montier's DNF in 1924 meant he was ineligible for cups Philby NZ (talk) 06:27, 5 February 2020 (UTC)

Montier engine

@A7V2: Sorry to bother you again. Does Spurring's book list Montier's engine as a Ford for all years or just 1925? (I presume that's the source you're referring to in your edit summary).

DriverDB lists the engine as Montier for all 3 years. I'm worried now that I have citations wrong in the article I'm working on, where I list the engines as Montier (engine names copied from the Le Mans 1923-25 articles, with Spurring and DriverDB as the sources). On the other hand, the reality as I understand is that they were both Ford (base unit) and Montier (highly modified). --kingboyk (talk) 07:43, 31 January 2020 (UTC)

Hi kingboyk. No bother at all! Yes, I was about to change 1923 and '24 but I got distracted... I think for the Le Mans articles we should go with Ford since that way the results are based on the single source, but ultimately it doesn't really matter since, as you say, the engines were Fords modified by Montier, so I wouldn't worry about changing it in the table on Charles Montier unless you really want it to be consistent, since you used driverdb as a source there. A7V2 (talk) 08:42, 31 January 2020 (UTC)

​ It appears that in the 1932 La Baule Grand Prix, Ferdinand Montier drove a Special with two engines [1]. If only the race had an article we could list one engine as Montier and one as Ford! ;) --kingboyk (talk) 09:10, 1 February 2020 (UTC)

hi guys. There is some fascinating detail in Spurring's book at Montier's car and history of the family from before WW1 (p76-77) - and I'd recommend adding that detail onto the Charles Montier wiki. Pre-war the family garage in Tours had the agencies for Siva, Gobron-Brille & Ford. After the war he moved into Paris where he specialised in modifying Fords for sale. In 1921 he patented a lowered version of the Model T, changing the suspension, hubs and radiator and putting on self-designed bodywork. The 2.9-litre Ford side-valve engine was also heavily modified with a Montier-design cylinder head, new alloy pistons and carburettor and a new exhuast fitted. Montier also took out the two-speed gearbox replacing it with a 3- or 4-speed gearbox for his customers. For the 1923 race his entry had a 2-litre push-rod engine of Montier's design. The original regulations for Le Mans by the ACO limited entries to manufacturer works entries only but obviously they considered Montier's entry sufficiently distinct and in sufficient saleable quantity to warrant an accepted entry. Spurring notes that the ACF did not take the same view and did not permit him entry to the Grand Prix. In 1924 the 2008cc engine had been replaced by a slightly smaller 1996cc car - called a Ford in the entry-table but still described as Montier's design in the text. A flying stone ruptured the oil-tank during the night which led to terminal engine damage and retirement. In 1925 Spurring (p162) says he had a 3-litre Ford pushrod engine in the car, but once again heavily modified to his own design. The page finishes off with a short desciption of the the Montier's family subsequent activities in Formula Libre and Grand Prix racing. Hope this helps, cheers Philby NZ (talk) 07:03, 5 February 2020 (UTC)