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Talk:.30 carbine/Archives/2014/September

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Latest comment: 10 years ago by Naaman Brown in topic Pistol vs Rifle confusion


Comparison with .357 Magnum and other rounds..

Latest comment: 10 years ago4 comments4 people in discussion

I don't know where we are getting the figure of 1,700fps for a 110gr bullet from a 4" barreled .357 Magnum. The citation for Winchester doesn't come close to supporting that claim. They quote only 1,295fps for the same weight in a .357 Magnum. Maybe it hits 1,700fps from a longer barrel or from special handloads, but we need to know what length for the purposes of the comparison. --D.E. Watters (talk) 20:29, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

Who compares the 357 magnum to the 30 cal carbine ? the 357 has so many different bullet weights and types ( HP , WADCUTTERS , LEAD ROUND NOSE ) the 30 cal carbine mainly had a 110gr fmj , hardly anything that will expand on soft tissue ! IMO the 30 cal carbine is more comparable to the 7.62 x 25 !Cj3006 (talk) 09:57, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

I think a more apt historical comparison would be the 7.63x33 Kurz? Just from a quick search the 7.92x36mm EPK (rare)is the only other round that comes close to filling the same "intermediate" range. The 7.62x25T is strictly a pistol cartage. Stardude82 (talk) 23:10, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

Comparison with other military rounds is in the History section; the current Comparison section compares .30 carbine to hunting and defense rounds. In part this is appropriate because it is no longer a front-line military round, and is more likely to be used today for civilian marksmanship practice, hunting, self-defense or police work.

.327 Federal Magnum is a good comparison although its quite a bit stronger than .30 carbine as it almost out does it with a 4inch barrel. If you want historical 7.62x38 Nagant is around the same power with the old WW2 loads. --Youngdrake (talk) 14:47, 2 July 2014 (UTC)

Factory ammo or military issue ammo ballistics:

  • .30 Carbine, 110 grain bullet, velocity 1950 feet per second from 18" carbine barrel, 930 Foot/pound kinetic energy.
  • .327 Federal Magnum, 100 grain bullet, 1,874 fps from a 5.5" revolver barrel, 780 ft/lb.
  • 7.62x38mmR Nagant, 97 gr bullet, 1,070 fps from 4.5" revolver barrel, 250 ft/lb.
  • 7.62x25mm Tokarev, 85 gr bullet, 1,378 fps from 4.6" TT33 pistol barrel, 358 ft/lb.
  • 7.62x25mm Czech M48, 85 gr bullet, 1800 fps from 11.2 inch barrel (M24 and M26 SMG), 611 ft/lbs.

I will point out that commercial .30 carbine ammo is loaded for optimal performance in a carbine with 18" barrel which makes it a rifle cartridge. When fired from a revolver, the carbine round has excessive muzzleblast and flash, which makes it no fun in pistol shooting. The idea of issuing a revolver in .30 carbine in WWII was nixed at the proving ground test stage because of the unnerving blast of the test models when used with ammo issued for the M1 carbine. Civilian users of the Ruger revolvers in .30 Carbine caliber are often handloaders who tailor their own pistol rounds for revolver use.

Pistol vs Rifle confusion

Latest comment: 10 years ago13 comments4 people in discussion

The article states that the .30 carbine is a rifle round that is often mistaken as a pistol round yet the side bar lists the .30 carbine as a pistol round. It also lists the primer that is uses as a pistol primer. I feel this is contradictory. The round is a rifle round that has had some pistols chambered for it. Unlike some carbines that use ammunition that was originally designed for a pistol, this was designed as a carbine rifle round not a pistol round.

As for the primer, most reloading manuals list the approved primer as Small Rifle, not pistol. This is also consistent with the fact that round is considered a small rifle round rather than a pistol round.

Please consider changing/correcting. —Preceding unsigned comment added by T-Town Yankee (talk • contribs) 15:35, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

WHB Smith "Small Arms of the World" and other standard firearms sources state the cartridge was developed for the 1940-1941 Light Rifle project specification and only after adoption of the M1 Carbine were handguns chambered for the round. Naaman Brown (talk) 18:02, 22 December 2011 (UTC) The spec listing primer as "large pistol" is totally wrong according to reloading manuals and my own experience reloading .30 carbine cartridges personally: large pistol primer will not fit a small rifle primer pocket. :)

It is a pistol round just based on its design and capabilities. Just because it was developed for "rifles" does not mean its a rifle round. Thats like saying .22 short was developed for self defense so its a self defense round. These weapons were designed as pistol caliber carbines before pistol caliber carbines were a thing. So they called them rifles but in capability and in usage they were identical to pistol caliber carbines.--Youngdrake (talk) 14:59, 2 July 2014 (UTC)

The .30 Carbine is not a pistol caliber...In 1940 when the M1 carbine was developed it was considered a light rifle caliber based on the .32 Winchester Self-Loading cartridge...reference...M1 Carbine: Design Development and Production, Larry Ruth, The Gun Room Press, 1979. Your opinions, point of view, or personal research is irrelevant, you have provided no reference to support your claims--RAF910 (talk) 15:34, 2 July 2014 (UTC)

It being a "light rifle" round does not make it a rifle round. Smith & Wesson Model 1940 Light Rifle Light rifle from the same time period in 9mm luger. Light rifle just means carbine and carbines can and are in pistol calibers quite frequently. --Youngdrake (talk) 15:44, 2 July 2014 (UTC)

While I currently cannot access the refrences I need (censored internet at work) I will link you to some things in the wiki that show what I am talking about.

"Another close comparison is the .30 Carbine, which has been offered in Ruger's single action Blackhawk revolver line since 1968.[14] The .30 Carbine was essentially the same ballistically as the .32 Winchester Self Loading, which was itself basically a rimless .32-20. The .327 Federal works at even higher pressure than the .30 Carbine (45,000 vs. 40,000 psi).[11][13] The long, 7½ inch (19 cm) barrel of the .30 Carbine Blackhawk, with suitable loads for a handgun, offers performance levels with similar bullet weights in excess of the factory loaded .327 Federal, along with excellent accuracy. Those who favor the .30 Carbine in a revolver do so due to the excellent accuracy, flat trajectory, and low recoil, all of which the .327 Federal also provides. Revolvers chambered for the .327 Federal can also safely fire .32S&W, .32S&W Long, .32H&R Magnum and the semi-rimmed .32ACP.[15] Both custom gunsmiths working with Ruger small frame single action Single Six and commercial maker Freedom Arms began offering conversions to convert .32 H&R revolvers to .327 Federal by early 2008. Test results from the long barreled guns showed even higher velocities than the .30 Carbine, along with excellent accuracy." 327_Federal_Magnum

It has also become popular as a "dual-use" cartridge in short, light rifles like the American Old West lever-actions. In a rifle, the bullet will exit the barrel at about 1,800 feet per second (550 m/s),[15] making it far more versatile than the .30 Carbine or the .32-20 Winchester..357 magnum

The Carbine and cartridge were not intended to serve as a primary infantry weapon, nor was it comparable to more powerful intermediate cartridges later developed for assault rifles..30 Carbine Case length 1.29 in (33 mm) .357 magnum Case length 32.76 mm (1.290 in) .30 Carbine

I propose it is changed to pistol/carbine in the description. As calling it a rifle round is misleading about it's capabilities. It is below the capabilities of common pistol ammunition. IT is used in the exact same role as pistol caliber ammunition. It is used in pistols and pistol caliber carbines. It's case and design are similar to pistol rounds. Nothing about this is a rifle round at best its a pistol / carbine round. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Youngdrake (talk • contribs) 15:36, 2 July 2014 (UTC)

Again, the .30 Carbine is not a pistol caliber...In 1940 when the M1 carbine was developed it was considered a light rifle caliber based on the .32 Winchester Self-Loading cartridge...reference...M1 Carbine: Design Development and Production, Larry Ruth, The Gun Room Press, 1979. Your opinions, point of view, or personal research is irrelevant, you have provided no reference to support your claims.--RAF910 (talk) 15:55, 2 July 2014 (UTC)

So being a light rifle caliber makes it a rifle round? I think that is putting words in Mr. Ruths mouth. He says it is a "light rifle" caliber but what exactly does that mean? Are they interchangeable? --Youngdrake (talk) 15:57, 2 July 2014 (UTC)

Sir, Your opinions, point of view, or personal research is irrelevant...you must provide references to support your claims. Otherwise, your edits to Wiki will be reverted by other editors.--RAF910 (talk) 16:06, 2 July 2014 (UTC)

I will repost this point: that commercial .30 carbine ammo is loaded for optimal performance in a carbine with 18" barrel which makes it a rifle cartridge. Commercial .30 carbine ammo and military issue .30 carbine ammo is not optimized for handgun length barrels and is in fact a miserable choice as a handgun cartridge. Users of the Blackhawk revolver in .30 carbine end up using handloaded ammo following suggested loads with convention pistol powders and pistol bullets in .308" diameter. Or they buy sunglasses and heavy duty hearing protection. Shooting factory .30 carbine ammo in a pistol is as unpleasnt as shooting factory .30-30 rifle ammo in a Thompson Contender pistol. --Naaman Brown (talk) 02:57, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

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