Talk:三星

Requested move 12 November 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Not moved * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 04:06, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

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三星 → 三星 (disambiguation) – Samsung is clearly the primary topic with respect to usage: According to Analytics ClickStream Dataset, the navigation from wikilinks in 三星 this year all goes to Samsung while none of that goes to Sanxing. NmWTfs85lXusaybq (talk) 15:51, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

Comment. WP:UE: Names not originally in a Latin alphabet, such as Greek, Chinese, or Russian names, must be romanized.

First of all, it doesn't appear that any entries are exact matches to this title except one, Sanxing (deities). All the other entries are either a Korean company (making a redirect unnecessary per WP:RLOTE), or have some form of third character. In my opinion, that makes this an unnecessary disambiguation page and it should be deleted.

A redirect in the Chinese characters to Sanxing (deities) can be left per RLOTE. But a disambiguation page or article must have a romanized title, so I would support a romanization of this if left as a dab page, or the proposed title should be romanized. estar8806 (talk) ★ 03:10, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

It's certainly true that article titles should be romanized, and the same is generally true for disambiguation pages, but there's a long-established issue with disambiguation pages for CJKV titles. If a CJKV title would be a valid redirect for multiple pages related to different languages (generally Chinese, Japanese, and/or Korean), there is often no romanization that would be valid for all of them. See Wikipedia:WikiProject Disambiguation/CJKV task force for more information. In this situation it's best for the ambiguous CJKV title to be a disambiguation page between the different languages' romanizations (this was clearer in the older version of this page, before the recent edits).

It's not correct that Sanxing (deities) is the only valid target. For Sanxing, Yilan, the third character 鄉 isn't really part of the place name, it is just a word meaning "township". Something similar is true for some of the redlinks at Sanxing. As for Samsung, 三星 is the Korean hanja version of its name, and therefore seems to be appropriate per WP:RLOTE, though I don't speak Korean so I am open to being corrected if I've misunderstood something there. —Mx. Granger (talk · contribs) 04:39, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

• Keep, but revert to something closer to the older version of the page where it just disambiguated the different transliterations. That version is easier to maintain (it and Sanxing wouldn't need to be kept in sync every time a new relevant article is created) and effectively more complete as several of the redlinks at Sanxing are missing from the current version of this page. As for the primary topic issue, it's not at all clear to me that Samsung is the primary topic for this search term – the main Korean writing system is hangul, rather than hanja, so it seems to me this is more likely to be a Chinese-language search term than a Korean-language one. Of course it's true that 三星 is also the Chinese name of Samsung, but that shouldn't factor into our decision (the Chinese name of a Korean company wouldn't be a valid WP:RLOTE).

Even if Samsung is the primary topic, what would be the point of moving this page to 三星 (disambiguation)? If Samsung is the primary topic, it seems to me it would make more sense to redirect this page to Samsung and add a hatnote there pointing to Sanxing (disambiguation). —Mx. Granger (talk · contribs) 04:39, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

You may vote "object" here but it's not a proper forum to resolve the content dispute as this is a RM rather than a AfD or RfC. As for entries of "Sanxing", only the entries actually transliterated from 三星 will be included unless Sanxing is reorganized by the source, in which condition a section link is acceptable.

Because another transliteration has been involved with the entry of "Sam Sing Wan", this dab page won't be WP:TWODABS or WP:ONEOTHER any more. NmWTfs85lXusaybq (talk) 05:04, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

As for the criteria of primary topic, please don't mix up those guidelines. WP:RLOTE applies on the completely different scope from WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. The primary redirect to Samsung could be qualified for the primary topic with respect to a more general usage (determined from ClickStream) while merely exists as a redirect for Korean hanja per WP:RLOTE. Thus, of course, Chinese-language search term should factor here as well. Unless you could find a WP:PT2 topic in Sanxing, there's no doubt for Samsung to be primary per WP:PT1. NmWTfs85lXusaybq (talk) 06:33, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

Oppose move. Obviously 三星 means different things. Also the company Samsung uses "삼성" instead. Cfls (talk) 03:37, 18 November 2023 (UTC)

三星 means different things doesn't imply that it can't have a primary topic. Although Samsung uses "삼성", I'm asking for a primary redirect on 三星, rather than moving Samsung there. Moreover, all your arguments have no business with whether Samsung can be the primary topic of 三星. NmWTfs85lXusaybq (talk) 12:52, 18 November 2023 (UTC)

It does use 三星 in the Chinese world though. – robertsky (talk) 13:25, 19 November 2023 (UTC)

• Interesting. The primary usage of "三星" on the Internet is the Chinese name of Samsung, but such a redirect is not allowed per WP:RFOREIGN so it cannot factor into primary topic consideration. I'm not sure whether "三星" taken strictly as Hanja for Samsung is primary over all other Chinese uses combined; the topic of Samsung is of course mentioned far more often than all of those Chinese topics in any language (e.g. English, Chinese, or Korean), but Hanja is used so rarely in Korean that we have to discount it heavily. -- King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 08:48, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

  The vote "interesting" itself is interesting. I still have no idea why WP:RFOREIGN is factoring that out of primary topic consideration. Hanja and Chinese both of which directly related to 三星 were also associated with the same culture in the ancient time (i.e. Sinosphere) and thus used the same Chinese characters. There's no such exception of WP:RFOREIGN explicitly clarified at WP:PT1, let alone that the only rationale related to primary topic I can find at WP:RFOREIGN can't exclude this kind of usage either: Different languages may also have different primary targets for the same phrase, causing confusion if we were to try to support cross-language redirects for a language's entire vocabulary. NmWTfs85lXusaybq (talk) 14:55, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

  If no other uses for "三星" existed beyond the Chinese name for Samsung (e.g. the various other Chinese uses or the Korean Hanja name for Samsung), then WP:RFOREIGN would prohibit the creation of a redirect and 三星 would be required to remain as a redlink even though there is an obvious referent. Compare, for example, how 加拿大 is a redlink even though it almost certainly refers to Canada. If something is not a valid topic for a term, then it certainly cannot be a primary topic for that term. -- King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 18:18, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

  三星 as Hanja has no difference from 三星 as Chinese. As I states above, you can actually treat them as the same topic so that it's valid under WP:RFOREIGN. Besides, there's no way to distinguish the usage between them from Analytics ClickStream Dataset, which is used to determine WP:PT1. NmWTfs85lXusaybq (talk) 23:44, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

  Sure, but while "三星" as Chinese for Samsung is clearly primary over all the Chinese topics, it is not obvious that "三星" as Hanja for Samsung is primary over all the Chinese topics among readers of English Wikipedia. -- King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 00:37, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

  If even a topic like "三星" as Hanja is not clear, under which condition a topic in CJKV disambiguation page could be primary? Is "昭和" as kanji obvious to be a primary topic over all Chinese topics in 昭和 (disambiguation)? NmWTfs85lXusaybq (talk) 03:22, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose per above. The Chinese-language name for Samsung isn't really a consideration on English Wikipedia.  — Amakuru (talk) 17:06, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

  Then what about its usage as Hanja? NmWTfs85lXusaybq (talk) 17:51, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review).