Talk:Ötzi/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Archive 4

Curse section made into separate article

I have taken the liberty to make a separate article curse of Ötzi the Iceman from the "Curse" section of Ötzi the Iceman. That section was becoming too big compared to the rest of the article, and its constant edits were interfering with the work of those editors who are more interested in the scientific aspects of the find. The relevant parts of the Talk page were moved too. I hope that this solution is acceptable to everybody concerned. All the best, Jorge Stolfi 21:55, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

I take it the separate curse section was subsequently removed. patrickw 16:37, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

I note that the article "Curse of Ötzi the Iceman" no longer exists independently and now redirects to the main article. At the risk of sensationalizing this article, do you think it would be useful to indicate in the section "Ötzi's curse" the names of the persons who have allegedly died as a result of the curse since the discovery of the Iceman in 1991? Cheers, Jacklee 15 March 2007

Request for semi-protection

Due to frequent vandalism from unregistered users since 9 March 2007, I have requested semi-protection for this article. See "Wikipedia:Requests_for_page_protection#Current_requests_for_protection". Cheers, Jacklee 11:54, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Ötzi's health and Professor Sara Cibralic

Under the section 'Health', someone has indicated that a certain Professor Sara Cibralic was the person to discover that Ötzi seems to have suffered from intestinal cancer and had whipworm. Can a citation for this fact be provided, and some additional information on Professor Cibralic be provided (e.g., her area of research and which institution she is from)? Jacklee 13:11, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

I note that someone has edited the article to remove the reference to Professor Cibralic and Ötzi's intestinal cancer. Cheers, Jacklee 15:07, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Copper-stone Age or Bronze Age?

The article used to state that Ötzi offers "an unprecedented view of Chalcolithic (Copper-stone Age) Europeans". An anonymous editor has changed this to "Bronze Age Europeans". Would someone knowledgable about this subject like to confirm wehther this fact is correct? Thanks. Cheers, Jacklee 13:42, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Sandra Nemeth's DNA

when i first read this article they say they had found her D.N.A. on oetzi howcome this has been removed plz send answer to "themados@yahoo.com.au".

Hi, I believe the statement that Sandra Nemeth's DNA had been found on Ötzi after she spat on the body to prove that she had found it first was not backed up by any citations, and that was why it was removed. In fact, a news report (which is cited in the article) stated that Nemeth asked for a DNA test to be done on the body, but scientists said that it would not be possible to find her DNA on it. By the way, please make comments on the article on this Talk page, and sign your posts with four tildes (~~~~). Thanks. Cheers, Jacklee 11:50, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Home Town

I have changed the hometown of the Ice Man to Velturno, which is the Italian name, instead of Felthunds. It makes no sense that the town, which is rather deep in Italy, would be written in the German form here. Both names link to the wiki page for the twon. - Izzo

But Feldthurns is in German-speaking South Tyrol. When there is no established English spelling, the spelling used in the locality should be used. The official website [1] is in both German and Italian. TiffaF 16:34, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

The main Wikipedia article is under the heading "Feldthurns", and "Velturno" redirects to that article. I've therefore updated the article to read "Feldthurns (Velturno)". Cheers, Jacklee 14:41, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Weight in stone

Is there any reason to provide his weight in "stone"? I wasn't aware of that unit even being in use anymore. On a similar note, if there's an official recommendation for which units to use in articles, I'd be grateful if someone would point it out to me. Shinyplasticbag 01:45, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

The stone is a common unit of weight in the UK, and is generally used for people's weight. I put it in because the UK newspaper article which I cited only gave Ötzi's weight in stones. The figure in kilogrammes was my own conversion of the weight in stones, and therefore may be less accurate. Also, I had a look at the Wikipedia Manual of Style, and it says that "Wikipedia articles are intended for people anywhere in the world. ... Conversions should generally be included and not be removed". Cheers, Jacklee 12:13, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Trivia section

A trivia section was recently added to the article with the following item of trivia:

• In May 2007, American actor Brad Pitt had a silhouette of Ötzi tattooed on the inside of his left forearm.

However, trivia sections are generally deprecated as they encourage editors to add miscellaneous facts which may not be very relevant to the article. They may also discourage improvement of the article since it is much easier just to tack on new trivia items rather than trying to incorporate them into the article properly: see "Wikipedia:Avoid trivia sections in articles".

I'm of the view that the above fact is very tangential to the article and should not be included on its own. However, it may be possible to create a section, perhaps called "Influence on popular culture", and refer to the fact in the context of a discussion of the influence that Ötzi has had on popular culture. Also, search engine results are not good citations as they change – instead, cite one or more of the reputable websites referred to in the search engine results page. If you have views on the subject, do share them here. Cheers, Jacklee 20:15, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

This little tidbit tells us nothing about Otzi, and so it doesn't belong in this article. It tells us something about Brad Pitt; if it belonged anywhere, it would be in his article, though it's such a non-consequential piece of information it probably belongs nowhere....unless there's a list of Brad's tattoos in his article. - Nunh-huh 20:25, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Sperm found on Ötzi's gear?

In the section "Scientific analysis of Ötzi", it is stated that sperm was found on the Iceman's gear. Is this vandalism, or attested by sources? If the latter, what have scientists said about the significance of the sperm? Would those more knowledgeable about archaeology and science comment on this? Cheers, Jacklee 15:06, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

I think it is supposed to be plant pollen. Bus stop 15:51, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

I read the article by Brenda Fowler in the links that you provided, which is actually in the "Further reading" section. I believe "sperm" referred to in that article was to endosperm. In fact, in the section entitled "The body", there is already a discussion of the pollen grains found among Ötzi's intestinal contents. Therefore, it is misleading for the "Ötzi the Iceman" article to refer to "sperm" being found on his gear, as most readers would understand this to mean spermatozoa or semen. I think the phrase should be deleted. Thoughts? Cheers, Jacklee 19:57, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree completely. Bus stop 19:59, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

That was a quick response! OK, done. Cheers, Jacklee 20:05, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

There is an urban legend about semen was found in Otzi, though, which was started as an April Fool's by a European gay magazine and later picked up and reported as fact. It's not related to the article Jacklee mentioned, I just thought it would be worth mentioning as people who'd heard the rumor might make a connection. It's a funny story, anyway. [2] Queer Scout 04:38, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Ah, that explains the mystery. Thanks. Cheers, Jacklee 15:44, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Knife

The article lists a knife twice among the tools found on the body. Is this the same knife accidentally listed twice due to sloppy editing, or where there two different knives found? --68.102.156.139 21:05, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

All sources I've read only mention one knife (and an axe)Storeye 02:54, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

Ötzi's "curse"

Teh article read that some people have died because of the bloody curse or that it is "not surprising" and had a referrence.

Well, I am sorry, that is buyist and had to go so I just erased it from Wikipedia!!!!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.141.147.137 (talk • contribs) 18:10, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Well, I'm sorry too, but I don't see how that was a biased statement and have restored the statement. The point was made in the TV documentary referred to in the reference. In fact, for the article to just mention that certain people related to the discovery and study of Ötzi had apparently died because of the Iceman's curse and not to mention that there might be a quite-ordinary explanation for this would itself be biased. Cheers, Jacklee 12:36, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Error

On the top of the box thingy, it says "olders mummy alive". I think the word alive should be replaced with discovered. For one, we don't know if there are any more out there, and two, mummy's aren't alive. 71.185.49.209 16:41, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for spotting that. It's vandalism, and I've reverted it. Cheers, Jacklee 20:21, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

ur'-tsee

Hi, ur'-tsee is very problematic IMO. There's no /ɹ/ in Ötzi. Nor is there [øː] in English. --Kjoonlee 19:50, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

For English speakers with non-rhotic speech, the 'r' might be silent, more or less. But even then, the 'ur' sound will be slightly diphthongized. My first edit summary was "inaccurate". Please don't ignore these concerns. --Kjoonlee 19:54, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

I see. Yes, a respelled pronunciation isn't able to capture the nuances of pronunciation. But in my view the problem is that most people don't know how to read International Phonetic Alphabet symbols. The article "IPA chart for English" doesn't explain how IPA symbols not used in English are pronounced, and the "International Phonetic Alphabet" article is unhelpful for this purpose. What is really needed is a clear, simple article along the lines of "IPA chart for English" but comprehensively explaining and providing examples for every IPA symbol. In the meantime, what about compromising by keeping the respelled pronunciation but adding a footnote stating: "There is no satisfactory way to indicate the pronunciation of the German "ö" using just the English alphabet, so the respelled pronunciation is only a rough approximation of the true pronunciation"? Cheers, Jacklee 22:44, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Rough approximations shouldn't contain glaring errors IMHO. Anyway, we provide audio samples, so shouldn't that be enough for people who can listen? --Kjoonlee 23:07, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Also, in the IPA article, [øː] is linked to close-mid front rounded vowel, which has Close-mid front rounded vowel.ogg^ⓘ. --Kjoonlee 23:12, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

It took me a while to find [øː] in "International Phonetic Alphabet", which confirmed my view that there needs to be a much simpler chart enabling general users to easily look up the meanings of IPA characters. (Something you might like to work on? :-)) And I discovered I don't have the right software to listen to .ogg files. But if you feel strongly about the inaccuracy of the respelled pronunciation, I suppose it can be left out. Cheers, Jacklee 03:52, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

The simplest way to look them up is actually the search box. For example, ø links to the relevant vowel article. --Kjoonlee 05:04, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Oh, right – I didn't realize that there were individual articles for each IPA symbol. Thanks. Cheers, Jacklee 11:55, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Had a look at the article "ø". Because the link to "Close-mid front rounded vowel" is in the middle, it's not the easiest way to find out how to pronounce that IPA symbol. Also, that article gives pronunciation examples from other languages, but that doesn't really help English speakers who are unfamiliar with those languages. Cheers, Jacklee 12:04, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

The purpose of the ø is not to help read IPA, but to provide info on the character. It's just a simple article, and besides, you can search for "IPA" or "Alphabet" and get straight to the relevant bit, no? The close-mid front rounded vowel article is about the vowel itself; the examples document the vowel. Please don't forget there are also sound samples. --Kjoonlee 12:04, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Well, that is just my point :-). Let's say I'm a reader who is unfamiliar with the IPA. I'm reading an article like "Ötzi the Iceman" and, not being a German speaker, would like to know how to pronounce "Ötzi". But I see a symbol like "[øː]" and would like to know what it means. What I need is a simple table explaining how all these unfamiliar characters sound, either by reference to a known word (e.g., "like the 'ur' in 'burden') or by description (e.g, "like 'er' with pursed lips"). Print dictionaries usually have a page like this to help readers. I don't really want to go searching Wikipedia or having to download sound samples, do I? Cheers, Jacklee 12:26, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Quite apart from anything else, the name Ötzi doesn't have [øː] anyway, but [œ]. I agree a sound file would be the best solution; there is nothing we could write in an ad-hoc pronunciation guide that would approximate [œ], which is nothing like English "ur", least of all for rhotic speakers, who are the majority of native English speakers. As for what page to link to to help people find the symbols, German phonology might be more manageable than International Phonetic Alphabet. —Angr 13:26, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Oh, right. Had another look at my German-English dictionary. It said (unhelpfully) that "ö" may be pronounced [ø], [øː] or [œ]. Guess I picked the wrong one. Think I'll verify German pronunciations with WikiProject Germany in the future. Thanks for the reference to "German phonology" – didn't know the article existed. Cheers, Jacklee 13:39, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

We now have [ˈœtsi]^ⓘ in the article. No need to go hunting for symbols, since we have an audio sample. The only unfamiliar part would be [ˈœ], and œ links to open-mid front rounded vowel which has instructions (descriptions) and sound samples as well: Open-mid front rounded vowel.ogg^ⓘ --Kjoonlee 14:57, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Otzi is super cool

Hi wats up peeps how are ya anyway bye! Princess Elisibeth the 2cnd! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.105.192.228 (talk) 21:20, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Acupuncture

Someone purged all references to acupuncture and Ötzi from both this article and the acupuncture article. Check the Talk page for Acupuncture, as well as (among many other links) http://dsc.discovery.com/convergence/iceman/evidence/tattoos.html

Also, the Smithsonian Natural History Museum makes the same claims in their Oetzi exhibit about acupuncture and tattoos. -S

That paragraph was apparently restored at some point. Jorge Stolfi 00:35, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

There should clearly be an acupuncture reference here. It's what I came to this page looking for, as it's common knowledge xod 18:11, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

See one of the myriad inane Wikipedia BLP-type policies for lengthy irrational explanations of why ignorant admins purge relevant material that violate their narrow minded belief systems

Longbow

In this article the length of the longbow is described as "3 feet 2 inches (one metre)", refering to Davies, Norman (1996). Europe: A History. Oxford: Oxford University Press. ISBN 0198201710. In his book "Der Mann im Eis" from 1993 Konrad Spindler on sites 100/101 gives a detailed description of the longbow, mentioning the length of 182 cm. Pictures of the bow also leave the impression the length is significantly longer than 1 m. Who is right? 217.94.187.119 09:15, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

I haven't read the Davies book. If you've got a more accurate figure from Spindler, do update the article accordingly, citing Spindler as authority (please indicate the page number from the book if possible). Cheers, Jacklee 21:12, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Died of Arrow Wound and After Effects

Article: http://dsc.discovery.com/news/2007/06/06/iceman_arc.html?category=archaeology&guid=20070606164030&dcitc=w19-502-ak-0000 "Researchers from Switzerland and Italy used newly developed medical scanners to examine the hunter's frozen corpse to determine that the arrow had torn a hole in an artery beneath his left collarbone, leading to a massive loss of blood.

That, in turn, caused Oetzi to go into shock and suffer a heart attack, according to the article published online in the Journal of Archaeological Science." Altonbr 14:26, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

According to a Yahoo news article he died of Head Trauma not the arrow wound. http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070829/ap_on_re_eu/italy_iceman_s_demise This article also describes his wieght and such. The current article states he died from cardiac arrest. This should be looked at and possibly changed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.112.84.161 (talk) 17:41, August 29, 2007 (UTC)

His weight?

The article says his weight was only 84 Lbs. This does not seem reasonable. It certainly needs a better specific reference. I would direct attention to http://www.mummytombs.com/otzi/health.htm for a reference of 110 Lbs, which sounds much more reasonable. I doubt he would have been on a mountain in fighting condition at 84 Lbs with his given height. Lance May

I did think the weight of 84 lbs, which was stated in a newspaper article, seemed a little on the low side too. I suspect that this was the weight of Ötzi's corpse rather than his weight when he was alive, but this was not clear from the newspaper. Cheers, Jacklee 21:32, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Infertility Link in Iceman's DNA

Article: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/4674866.stm

I was simply going to quote some parts of the article here, but I am not sure if it would be deleted due to a copyright violation.

In short, a new study found that Oetzi may have been infertile. Now that we know for sure he died due to an arrow puncture which caused internal bleeding, does this information warrant an addition to the article?

Even without the new information, should it be included anyway? (Sonaro 06:17, 8 June 2007 (UTC))

Of course it should be added--any additional factual information should be added--, and I have tentatively put it under "health" without the speculation about his death. DGG 03:33, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Great. Thank you. Sonaro 14:18, 16 June 2007 (UTC)