Help talk:IPA/Portuguese/Archive 1

Separate languages, separate help pages

The Galician aspects of this help page should be broken out and placed in Help:IPA for Galician. Readers who come to this page have been linked from a transcription that is specific to one language, not several. The languages are obviously close related and very similar, but keeping them together will only generate confusion for the average reader. As long as they are defined separately, they should be treated separately.

There's also the obvious problems that Portuguese will be the "senior" language with this type of treatment, as has been the case with both Help:IPA for Swedish and Norwegian and Help:IPA for Dutch and Afrikaans. There's an obvious problem neutrality involved here.

I've split IPA help tables before, so I don't mind doing it here as well.

Peter ^Isotalo 18:13, 22 March 2015 (UTC)

That's fine, but I'm not a fan of the method you used to split up Dutch and Afrikaans. I would rather we rename this page to IPA for Portuguese to maintain an unbroken history. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[lɛts b̥iː pʰəˈlaɪˀt]} 18:52, 22 March 2015 (UTC)

No objections here. You're free to do the same to the Dutch/Afrikaans title. It was always focused on Dutch anyhew.

Peter ^Isotalo 19:18, 22 March 2015 (UTC)

An older version of this table represented only Portuguese, maybe you can get something out.--Luizdl (talk) 19:58, 22 March 2015 (UTC)

I agree to split up these language IPAs with these phonetics where much different vary by dialect. ApprenticeFan ^work 13:01, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

Great job, Luiz! It was really complicated to read. Peter238 (talk) 21:07, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

Dark /l/ on syllable onset

Is anyone opposed on removing the chart for velarized /l/ at sillable onset preceding /i/ in Brazilian Portuguese example? /l/ velarization in Portuguese is similar to English, happens anywhere and it is higher at coda position.

In time, as the letter "X" represents 4 possibilities in Portuguese, /s, ks, ʃ, z/, but only 3 possibilities is being represented here, /s, z, ʃ/, is anyone opposed on adding a row for /ks/ cluster?--Luizdl ^Talk 18:04, 9 July 2015 (UTC)

I don't know enough about BP to say yay or nay on dark l. But I don't think we should have a separate entry for /ks/. We don't do that for other languages and it would help neither readers trying to understand our IPA transcriptions nor editors wishing to transcribe Portuguese. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[lɛts b̥iː pʰəˈlaɪˀt]} 20:04, 9 July 2015 (UTC)

OK, I'll remove it. I'll also remove the misleading link to Near-open central vowel--Luizdl ^Talk 21:31, 9 July 2015 (UTC)

Questions

Hi, I have some suggestions/questions:

1. Do you think it would help English-speaking users to understand Portuguese better if we separate stressed and reduced vowels?
2. Do you think it's relevant to use [ɫ] in EP? Would you replace it with /l/ as in Catalan or Russian?
3. Do you think we should move nasalisation to suprasegmentals and use/add a note with all the examples?
4. Should we mark optional or frequently dropped sounds (e.g. [ɨ]) with (), or should we just use diacritics?
5. Should we include all diphthongs and triphthongs in a note or should we use a link to the table on the Portuguese phonology article. — Jɑuмe ^(dis-me) 23:22, 28 November 2015 (UTC)

I have no objection to the first 3, but the last 2 may not be a good idea. Basically any unstressed vowel, or in some cases even entire syllables can be dropped, especially in words like você [ˈse], estamos [ˈtɐmu], olha [ˈɔ] etc. The vowel [ɨ] (or [i] in BP) just have a higher tendency to get dropped, but this vowel may also appear in epenthesis. About diphthongs and triphthongs, they're just sequences of vowels plus semivowel, or labialized velar plus vowel (plus semivowel), to list all possibilities will flood the page, making the suggestion to move nasalization to suprasegmentals to result in no clean up. But no objection to link to respective section at Portuguese phonology page.--Luizdl ^Talk 03:36, 29 November 2015 (UTC)

I agree with Luizdl, though it's my understanding that there are only certain nasal vowels. If we moved it to the suprasegmentals box, we would want to indicate this limitation. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[lɛts b̥iː pʰəˈlaɪˀt]} 19:36, 29 November 2015 (UTC)

Sorry Luiz I didn't express myself properly. On question no 4 I meant accepted (i.e. regulated) elisions and optional/frequently dropped sounds.

Do formal speakers (like news reporters) always use full non elided forms in BP? Are there instances where formal BP speakers may drop some sounds? Regarding EP [ɨ], are there any cases where it's widely dropped and if it is, is it accepted in formal contexts and how should we transcribe it? Comparison with Catalan:

• Accepted elisions in Central Catalan include syllable mergings or synaloephas (such as una hora [ˈun ˈɔɾə], "one hour") and in some cases final stops (font [ˈfɔn] "fountain") and the sequences /əɾ/ ~ /ɾə/ (berenar [bə̥ɾəˈna] "to have an afternoon snack, to have tea" / escarabat ([əskəɾə̥ˈβat] "beetle"), these sequences could be transcribed as [ə̥ɾ] / [ɾə̥] because although it's accepted, promoted and sometimes it's reflected in the orthography (e.g. cargol vs caragol "snail"), it's not always regarded as the most exact pronunciation). Optional sounds are limited to the variation of the pronunciation of certain consonant clusters. Non-standard colloquial elisions include initial [ə] and further linkings. Standard Valencian features synaloephas but not the other examples. Colloquial Valencian features simplifications like pâ (instead of per a "for") and vesprâ (instead of vesprada "afternoon"), as well as initial unstressed /a/ dropping adéu → déu ("goodbye") but these forms are not regarded as formal.

Thanks for your opinion Aeusoes1, and I agree with that remark. Would you help us to organise, improve the writing and check phonetic terms? Your command of English and knowledge of the IPA is better than mine — Jɑuмe ^(dis-me) 12:32, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

A good example is this video from "Jornal Nacional", the most famous news in Brazil, Rede Globo, at begging the news anchors say the greetings boa noite, the woman pronounce [boə nojtʃ] (probably with a voiceless [i]) while the man said [bwə nojtʃi], later at 7th seconds the man pronounce admite as [adʒmitʃ], at 24 seconds he says contra o as [ˈkõtɾu], at 33 seconds the woman says França e Rússia as [ˈfɾə̃siˌhusĭ̥ə̥̆].--Luizdl ^Talk 16:07, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

Marginal consonants

Can I remove the section "Marginal consonants", or at least the /x/ example, since is commonly replaced with /ʁ/ phoneme. There are very few Spanish loanwords, and "mojito" specifically is a Cuban drink, where ⟨j⟩ is pronounced with [h] according to Caribbean Spanish article. Also, if we insert every loanwords sound which is subtly different from Portuguese sounds will open the door for insertion of many others examples that will only be pronounced that way for who are aware of the differences. For example, I've found the word sushi being pronounced with alveolo-palatal fricative, precisely in Brazilian Portuguese dubbing of Dragon Ball Z: Battle of Gods where at the end of the movie, at 1:14:15, Whis pronounced sushi with a very clear alveolo-palatal fricative, but it does not mean I will insert it as marginal consonant because it obviously would be replaced with /ʃ/ by most speakers, so to keep a nearly unknown word with [x] which is commonly replaced with /ʁ/ in Portuguese and pronounced [h] in Cuba where it came from, to me it is completely nonsense.--Luizdl ^Talk 00:37, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

You're totally right about that, a Cuban would pronounce mojito with [h]. And I agree with your suggestion. If you want we could also include more examples in the Portuguese orthography article, and create a section with all the correspondences between spelling and sound (see English orthography#Spelling-to-sound correspondences, Catalan orthography#Spelling-to-sound correspondences (the Catalan correspondences are not finished yet though)), what do you think? — Jɑuмe ^(dis-me) 02:27, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

I think it's a good idea, maybe I'll work on it at night.--Luizdl ^Talk 15:43, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

β

Does the usage of β mean we're combining betacist and non-betacist speakers? I used to do that in IPA for Valencian (as we also have betacist dialects, and I got inspired by the transcriptions you originally had here years ago), however I changed it because it's not accurate. Is it right to do it here (i.e. to combine betacists and non-betacists)? (If it's not, a solution perhaps could be to move [β ð ɣ] to a section for dialectal consonants.) — Jɑuмe ^(dis-me)

• In my opinion it's not accurate because there isn't any speaker that uses β (fricative) and v simultaneously [in the same dialect], and also because this merger could imply intervocalic /v/ could shift to /b/, or /b/ to /v/. And also I don't think β is widely used in the media — Jɑuмe ^(dis-me)

Sorry for my ignorance, but I'm not used to this term, what is "betacism"?--Luizdl ^Talk 04:59, 16 February 2016 (UTC)

According to a random dictionary: loss of distinction between the sounds of b and v in a language or dialect — Jɑuмe ^(dis-me) 05:08, 16 February 2016 (UTC)

The following meanings are also right I suppose:

1. A sound change in which [b] (the voiced bilabial plosive) shifts to [v] (the voiced labiodental fricative).

   Betacism is a fairly common phenomenon: it has taken place in Greek, Hebrew, and Spanish, among others.

2. A speech disorder involving excessive use of the [b] sound, or conversion of other sounds into it.

Thanks. I don't know if there are some dialects that merge [β] into /v/, I've searched on Forvo to find some pronunciation examples from Portugal, and to my perception, the user Luisdalmeida pronounced cobalto and nove differently, he pronounced "cobalto" with a sound resembling a badly obstructed 'b', and "nove" with a sound resembling an 'f', but with voice and less strengh. Also, written sources generally just say /b/ and /v/ are distinguished and the voiced stops can be lenited.--Luizdl ^Talk 05:25, 16 February 2016 (UTC)

You're welcome Luiz. It could be possible. And I think that speaker could've tried to imitate a cultivated accent that perhaps combines more sounds, my friend from a village in northern Portugal merge them very often though, so I'd say there are people that merge b and v, it's clear there are many accents and different perspectives :) IMO the usage of β in our languages implies a merger, although recent speakers have developed new results that (slightly) change the matter. In Valencian we also combine many realizations (probably hundreds)... However, how do news reporters pronounce /b/? I know songs like Fantasminha brincalhao uses /b/ (in all instances) and nasalization is not so strong, that's why in Valencian we don't use the tilde to spell the Portuguese nasal diphthongs (i.e. in our language) (and also our reporters don't nasalise Joao, but La Défense is nasalized more often – this might also due to ignorance or because nasalization in Portuguese is not seen as something that differentiate us) (although I recognise "ão" and "õe" sound quite genuine, and very different from "ao" and "oe" (merged by most Valencians)) — Jɑuмe ^(dis-me) 05:53, 16 February 2016 (UTC)

Maybe in Northern Portugal it has been merged.

In this video all the times he said "tu vais ver" the said with [v], and I couldn't find a word with intervocalic /b/, in "brincalhão" it's word initial. Also, I don't think it would have a problem with intervocalic /b/ being pronounced as [b], since [b] and [β] are the same phoneme. Nasalization to me is OK too.--Luizdl ^Talk 06:35, 16 February 2016 (UTC)

I'm not questioning /v/ (which is found in Standard Portuguese like in Valencian). Nasalization in Fantasminha sounds like the /N/ archiphoneme in Valencian and Murcian. "Fantasminha brincalhão" is pronounced together, but it would be better I search for a better example :) — Jɑuмe ^(dis-me) 06:50, 16 February 2016 (UTC)

Ok, I've just listened to RTP news, and all the reporters I've listened they use b instead of β (which is not only ignored in the upper class variety of Lisbon in emphatic contexts, but also in posh EP accents that stress the independence of Portuguese from Galician-Portuguese, as well as in modern Standard EP (and similar to the shift of dark l in Valencian promoted by language secessionists)). I haven't heard any instance of b lenition like in Northern Portuguese (which is regarded as a low prestige dialect, a bit like Murcian or Andalusian...) so I can presume this guide is mixing things and now you have more notes than in Catalan which is funny as Aeusoes1 was always complaining about them, but he never complained here (however this is not important to me, and I'd vote/support you to have as many notes as people want as long as info is not constantly duplicated and totally irrelevant). In my opinion dialects like Murcian and Northern Portuguese (which are not lower for me) are richer and more genuine than most prestigious accents, and I think they deserve a better explanation within this guide or in separate ones. Also the Rio de Janeiro accent which is closer to EP itself than SP BP could have its own section or page. — Jɑuмe ^(dis-me) 15:57, 16 February 2016 (UTC)

In my opinion the fricatives (ð ɣ, and very few instances of β in further relaxed contexts and not found in news reports) are triggered by certain harmony (e.g. they always appear in contact with other fricatives or vowels), however they often fail to be pronounced in emphatic environments :) — Jɑuмe ^(dis-me) 16:49, 16 February 2016 (UTC)

The solution should be amended to β only, as ð ɣ are found in news reports — Jɑuмe ^(dis-me) 17:13, 16 February 2016 (UTC)

Calling it betacism is a bit inaccurate, though the lenition of voiced plosives is based on a JIPA source. If we want to be a bit broader in our transcriptions, I don't have a problem with removing them, though it may be too prominent a feature of European Portuguese to do so. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[lɛts b̥iː pʰəˈlaɪˀt]} 17:40, 16 February 2016 (UTC)

I also don't have a problem with removing them if you want to do so, since they're the same phoneme, so I am neutral. These sounds are here just because the sources say they are lenited. But if you will remove, you should remove all of them, not only β, else it would be somewhat nonsense.--Luizdl ^Talk 21:52, 16 February 2016 (UTC)

That's how the Valencian sources I've read call it (i.e. from the original pronunciation of the Greek letter beta which according to Wikipedia was /b/, although (IMO) it could had also alternated with β by evolved speakers or speakers of a certain gender/sexuality, and could had also be found in Biblical places, do you know the history of /b/, when [β] first appeared and when /v/ emerged as a total different phoneme?) — Jɑuмe ^(dis-me) 22:57, 16 February 2016 (UTC)

How about moving them to a column where it says relaxed/lenited consonants and transcribe them for both Brazilian (cross-border speakers/spontaneous relaxed pronunciation (in non-standard varieties)) and Portugal (common relaxed pronunciation/accepted pron. in the standard)? My previous suggestion was to move (i.e. not remove) only β, but as you say it may be inconsistent therefore I change my proposal (again). In Valencian I don't have a problem to ignore β (approximant) as our sources say /v/ is more recommended — Jɑuмe ^(dis-me) 23:35, 16 February 2016 (UTC)

No problem with the move, but I'm not sure where in Brazil lenition can be common. I've read even in Uruguay, where Portuguese is natively spoke by diglossic communities, bilinguals speakers have difficulty on pronouncing lenited [ð] even when speaking in Spanish while in Rioplatense, spoke in Montevideo, this phoneme can be even deleted. I don't have access to the file but the abstract can be read here, so if even in Uruguay it's less common, then less common it should be to "cross border speakers".--Luizdl ^Talk 23:57, 16 February 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for the source. Its content could be valid, so I could try to read that. Some years ago there were some Brazilian users that asserted lenition is found in Brazil too (and they changed this guide, do you remember?), because of this (and Barbosa & Albano statement) I've presumed spirantization is also found (now rarely) in certain cross border areas, in communities with "EP" speakers, or in areas where there were more "Galicians", but I don't know how they (the Galicians) settled in Brazil, i.e. whether they segregated and fully integrated or they concentrated in specific areas, like the Portuguese, Germans, etc. Also my friend from a town in Rio Grande do Sul didn't have any problem pronouncing β ð ɣ when he moved to Spain, his pronunciation was pretty similar to Spanish and Galician, however the stereotypical/most general Brazilian pronunciation is with (hard) plosives — Jɑuмe ^(dis-me) 01:01, 17 February 2016 (UTC)

Your friend pronounces [β, ð, ɣ] when speaking Portuguese or Spanish? Spanish learners would practice its pronunciations better while diglossic native speakers already speak both languages. I remember that guy that asserted it, Lguipontes, he always said he is from Rio de Janeiro, always said his dialect has the "most prestige", and always accused sources that contradict him as "São Paulo" biased. In one of the his "wars" he cited some Youtube videos in Talk:2013 protests in Brazil#Proof that Brazilians have consonantal lenition in places other than Rio de Janeiro, if you want you can listen the videos that himself cited and take you own conclusions.--Luizdl ^Talk 01:33, 17 February 2016 (UTC)

My friend who lives now in Galicia used them in Castilian only (that's how he called this language), I think he adapted quite well to the Valencian Country (he also learned some sentences in our language, not like many Castilians) and to Galicia (as he told me he can speak his main language more naturally there, although he also had problems using it). And yeah, the guy who did that was Lguipontes, maybe he was a vandal after all. The bad videos he used don't have speakers that use lenition, so his statement might've been fake as he was trying to impose his way, but I still understand him (a bit), and maybe he was like that because we didn't specify Portuguese has local pronunciations that could be valid (although São Paulo and Lisbon area still are the most common and preferred varieties to represent BP and EP respectively), so I think we could also indicate certain local features in a separate guide or section. — Jɑuмe ^(dis-me) 02:30, 17 February 2016 (UTC)

I'm not opposed to create separate guides for different dialects, but probably many other users may oppose to this as well as there were opposition in the guide for Spanish. Actually this guide represent a "mixed dialect" for Brazil, most dialects have coda [s], and most dialects the coda /r/ is the same of the double r etc. In Rio, coda /s/ would be postalveolar similar to Portugal coda /s/, and São Paulo coda /r/ would be coronal tap/approximant similar to Portugal coda /r/ which is tap or American English coda /r/ which is approximant.--Luizdl ^Talk 02:47, 17 February 2016 (UTC)

I noticed that long ago (which is similar to [β]). In Catalan/Valencian coda /ɾ/ is the same although emphatic and capital orientated speakers prefer /r/... What's the point of representing pseudo-variants for Portuguese in this guide? And well, perhaps if we mix varieties a guide for dialects would be better to show the real pronunciation in Portuguese. I don't understand the opposition of those users, since they haven't answered to all my questions, besides that common sense should prevail and we should always seek for a solution. IMO if we're indicating local transcriptions, these transcriptions need a guide or sort of order. — Jɑuмe ^(dis-me) 03:42, 17 February 2016 (UTC)

I just checked some transcriptions and I found two where /v/ is transcribed as [β] locally (Póvoa de Varzim and Póvoa de Lanhoso), how shall we indicate this here? — Jɑuмe ^(dis-me) 22:44, 18 February 2016 (UTC)

It seems it was inserted in Póvoa de Varzim by @PedroPVZ: as ['pɔβuɐ dɨ bɐɾ'ziŋ], I pinged him to share his knowledge with us. That one in Póvoa de Lanhoso was inserted by an anonymous from United Kingdom, and an anon with the same ISP of the other (by duck they should be same anon user) fixed some peculiarities in Póvoa de Varzim and was reverted by PedroPVZ.--Luizdl ^Talk 01:16, 19 February 2016 (UTC)

Good idea. In my opinion the usage of a bilabial fricative ([β]) for /v/ could denote both an old or local pronunciation. The incidence of the sound [β] (along with [ð]) seems contested though. — Jɑuмe ^(dis-me) 02:03, 21 February 2016 (UTC)

Yes, originally /v/ was labial or labiovelar approximant/fricative, generally from semivocalic u as in 'vinho' (vīnum) or from some intervocalic b as in 'nuvem' (nūbēs), it has merged with /b/ in Galician and, apparently, Northern Portugal, and became labiodental fricative in Portuguese.--Luizdl ^Talk 02:36, 21 February 2016 (UTC)