Draft talk:Reya Sunshine/Archive 1

Notability

Here are the 3 best sources for this article:

1. AVN, Dan Miller. "Abella Danger & Reya Sunshine to Co-Host 2023 AVN Awards Show AVN". AVN. Retrieved December 17, 2022. (This article is not an interview, and subject is cited by the CEO of the AVN Media Network as "representing the best of the best of the adult industry today")
2. "Gold Club SF VR ushers in realistic virtual reality for strip clubs". VentureBeat. March 12, 2017. Retrieved December 27, 2022. (This article is not about the subject, but subject is quoted and mentioned throughout the article as a key performer for an application involving a technological innovation.)
3. Ruberg, Bo (June 5, 2022). "Live play, live sex: The parallel labors of video game live streaming and webcam modeling". Sexualities. 25 (8): 1021–1039. (Quotation can be found through google scholar, author's employment of quote from subject indicates her expertise and success in the field of webcam modeling)

Ajax0714 (talk) 19:06, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

And for source #3, subject is mentioned extensively in the article's abstract, which can be found online. Ajax0714 (talk) 19:21, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

@Ajax0714 the first source does meet significant coverage but is not entirely independent because is it AVN announcing their own event so leans weak for notability. Venture Beat is kind of similar because it is also about one of their events but even more so it is largely her statements. The couple of paragraphs that are independent are not really about her but the app so does not meet significant coverage. In the third source all mentions of her are her statements so not independent thus not useful for notability. I will also also note success is not the same as notability, nor is popularity. For example, CEOs of large companies (i.e. successful) or YouTubers with millions of subscribers (i.e. popular) may not meet notability. I did take a look at some of the other sources but they are either largely her statements or trivial mentions.

For a comparison, take a look at Lana Rhoades as this is the most recent article about an adult entertainment performer I am aware of. The article was created a few times, starting in 2017, and had four different deletion discussions over the years where the community consensus was "delete". You can see the last discussion in 2021 at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Lana Rhoades (4th nomination). The article was recreated once again a couple months or so ago after additional mainstream media sources became available and finally made it to mainspace, although not without some debate. Granted, the issues are not really about adult entertainment performers specifically but meeting the notability standards of any biography. You will see somewhat similar arguments across the board (such-and-such source is fine for verifiability but not notability, sources are largely interviews/their statements, sources do not show significant coverage, etc.). S0091 (talk) 17:19, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

@S0091 This is now a very minor point about the Venture Beat article, because I agree that as significant coverage of the subject it's iffy at best, but you mentioned that the Venture Beat article was about one of their events. It was very clear that because the AVN news article was about the AVN Awards Show, it weakens the independence, but I didn't see how the Venture Beat article was about one of their events. Ajax0714 (talk) 18:56, 8 January 2023 (UTC)

Got it, thanks!! I definitely don't have any desire to recreate something like the Lana Rhoades debate, so thanks for pointing that out!! And looking at that discussion, there seems to be a great deal of controversy about what exactly constitutes notability, but if a porn performer manages to get enough mainstream citations, enough people that oppose it start to relent. In this case, I can make a more more clear argument in that the subject largely took an essentially independent path to get to the same level that everyone else had to perform for a large studio to get to, and that kind of innovation would constitute notability. What it seems the wikipedia threshold requires, though, is a mainstream source to explicitly make that point. Since I put a lot of work into this, I might roll the dice and see what happens, but it definitely seems like I should see if any mainstream coverage results from AVN first! And even though this process has been tedious, I definitely appreciate your assistance - regardless of whether it's in the main space or not, I think it's become a better article since my initial submission! Ajax0714 (talk) 17:54, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

@Ajax0714 I think the issue is you need sources that have written specifically about her innovative approach. Otherwise, trying to point that out might be WP:SYNTH so be careful. Also out of curiosity I looked around for Abella Danger, the other host for the awards, and found Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Abella Danger (2nd nomination). But yes, you can roll the dice and see what happens. If it doesn't make the cut, hopefully it will be moved back to draft rather than outright deleted. And I agree, you have been a trooper through all this and have shown willingness to make improvements. Best of luck! S0091 (talk) 18:15, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

I appreciate the encouragement, as well as the guidance to keep WP:SYNTH in mind!! Also, please take some credit for yourself as well - thanks to your willingness to engage in a constructive manner, this overall experience has still been a net positive! Ajax0714 (talk) 18:49, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

Revised sources

@S0091 I just spent some time looking at your comments on the three sources, and I've decided to post three more that I think do a better job of meeting all four criteria for significant coverage, secondary, independent, reliable. If you or anyone else would like to offer any feedback, feel free!

Here's a revised list of the three best sources for the article as it stands:

1. AVN, Dan Miller. "Reya Sunshine Wins Naked News' 'Guest Anchor Madness' AVN". AVN. Retrieved December 17, 2022. (A search on AVN.com lists this source as a news article)
2. XBIZ. "Kiiroo Welcomes Reya Sunshine as Newest 'FeelStar'". XBIZ. Retrieved January 7, 2023. (This source contains the byline of Rick Thomas, who has authored other articles for XBiz)
3. Control Freak: AVN 2018 - The Future of Porn, retrieved January 7, 2023. (Source is a 15-minute video, and the portions most relevant to the subject are 4:32 - 9:00. There is extensive coverage of the subject from 7:00-9:00.)

Ajax0714 (talk) 22:59, 7 January 2023 (UTC)

@Ajax0714 I suggest resubmitting it so another reviewer will take a look. S0091 (talk) 14:39, 8 January 2023 (UTC)

@S0091, Thanks for creating this subsection, and I'll be resubmitting this draft back to AfC in probably another week or two so another reviewer can take a look, and I agree that's the best approach. I also think the source below deserves a re-look - admittedly, I originally did a pretty poor job by simply lifting a quote from it for my draft, which is akin to treating it like a primary source. Upon further examination, however, the youtube video the subject produced wound up being a major component of this author's study, and her statements were used to inform the author's analysis and conclusions on the field of webcam modeling. So, it seems to meet significant coverage, secondary, independent, and reliable. I'm also bringing it up because coverage in an academic article seems a bit different from that in typical news sources, and I'm trying to get a better feel for how to approach academic article as a source in the future. I'm also aware that you've been very generous with your time in looking at this draft, so I'll try to pose this question to other editors as well - thanks again!

Ruberg, Bo (June 5, 2022). "Live play, live sex: The parallel labors of video game live streaming and webcam modeling". Sexualities. 25 (8): 1021–1039. Ajax0714 (talk) 18:24, 8 January 2023 (UTC)