Category talk:Arianism

Oneness Pentecostalism

Oneness Pentecostals are NOT Arians, and should not be included on this category page as if they were. Might I ask some administrator or similar person to remove this listing, please? Thanks! - Ecjmartin (talk) 13:28, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

Bad Subcategorization

Oneness Pentecostalism should not be under the category of Arianism. While I do not dispute that they have been accused of teaching Arianism, this is mostly from a misunderstanding of their beliefs and teachings.

Therefore, I do not dispute the following statement from Oneness Pentecostalism §Accusations of Modalism and Arianism:

They have also occasionally been accused of Arianism, usually by isolated individuals rather than church organizations.[18] While Oneness theologian Dr. David Bernard indicates that Modalistic Monarchianism and Oneness are essentially the same (so long as one does not understand Modalism to be the same as Patripassianism),[14] he vehemently denies any connection to Arianism in Oneness teaching.[19]

But following the link in the reference is a quote by Eddie Snipes of David Bernard in his book The Oneness of God. (Note: If you follow the link to Snipes' page, the links at the top of the page do not work and you have to scroll down to the pertinent section.) There is a quote taken out of context where Bernard says the ministry of the Sonship will have an end and this is related to a quote from Arius using the same words.

My ex-wife and children are of the Oneness Pentecostal faith, though not of the same organization within it as David Bernard, so I have extensively studied their teachings. Bernard does have that belief, but for entirely different theological and soteriological reasons than Arius held them. I have read this very book quoted by Snipes, (though it was quite a few years ago) and Bernard does not believe or teach Arianism. This does not change the fact that he has been accused of it by Snipes, albeit I believe incorrectly.

If anything the Oneness Pentecostals are the polar extreme from the Arians, with the Nicaene Trinitarianism holding a middle position between the two. Oneness Pentecostals are modalist monarchian and many of them admit it. According to Paul Tillich in his book A History of Christian Thought on page 72, (or there abouts) after the 325 AD Council of Nicaea, the Arian bishops sought to discredit the bishops of the Nicaenum by accusations that they were Sabellianist. That is, they were relating the bishops of the Trinitarian doctrine adopted at Nicaea with the opposite extreme of modalist monarchianism in order to gain rhetorical ground on them in the debate.

Oneness Pentecostals see the Person of the Father in the Son by manifestation. They view them as the same Person of the Godhead, with the distinction of the Father referring to the deity of Christ and the Son referring to his human nature. Trinitarians see the Father and Son as being different Persons of the same substance, both being deity. Arians see the Father and Son as being different Persons with similar (but different) substance and therefore completely separate in their identities, the Son being a sort of lesser God than the Father.

The Trinitarians I have spoken with on this subject view the Jehovah's Witnesses (neo-Arianists) as tearing the Godhead into separate parts and the Oneness Pentecostals (neo-Sabellianists) as welding it too closely together. Other than them both being anti-Trinitarian, they are not viewed as being on the same side of the debate, but rather as being on opposing extremes of it.

So, it is proper to put Oneness Pentecostals in the anti-Trinitarian category along with the Arians. It is misleading to place Oneness Pentecostals under the Arian category, the accusation notwithstanding. The wording in regards to the accusation are fair and neutral; the placing of Oneness Pentecostalism under the category of Arianism is not. It is not even in keeping agreement with the above quoted segment.

Type Dumper (talk) 19:27, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Removing "Oneness Pentecostalism" from this Categorization

Acting under the "be bold" concept of Wiki-ism, I have removed the Oneness Pentecostals from this categorization, per info given above. They simply do not belong in this category, no matter what their enemies (and I, just for the record, am neither a Oneness nor a Trinitarian Christian) say otherwise. - Ecjmartin (talk) 13:28, 23 January 2010 (UTC)