Category talk:American people of Jewish descent

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Americans of Southwest Asian Descent

There has been a question in the category of this page of whether or not Jews are considered of "Southwest Asian" descent. Considering all of the genetic, anthropological, lingual, archaeological, and historical evidence that directly link today's Jews to the Ancient Israelites who lived in the region known today as "Israel," it does not seem to be unreasonable that American people of Jewish descent can also have an additional category added called, "American people of Southwest Asian descent." Especially when Kurdish people, Druze, Arabs, Azerbaijani people are all there as well. In short, the Jews and Jewish culture and philosophy comes from Israel, so Jews are inherently a Southwest Asian (or Afro-Asiatic, in terms of language) people. Please let me know what you think here. Jeffgr9 (talk) 01:01, 11 September 2015 (UTC)

The issue is very simple. If anywhere, Asian categories should be added at the top of the category tree, which is Category:Jews. However, see that category's history and talkpage, that such edits have been rejected. The category, and others like it, are however added at Category:Semitic peoples, which is one more step up the category tree. Debresser (talk) 11:50, 11 September 2015 (UTC)

Looking at the Category:Jews, it indeed says that Jews descended from the Ancient Near East, which is Southwest Asia. Where does your argument prove otherwise? Semitic Peoples are of Southwest Asian descent. Jeffgr9 (talk) 03:10, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

You don't seem to get the point at all. Please see WP:DUPCAT. Debresser (talk) 16:58, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

What is your point? Jeffgr9 (talk) 17:43, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

That the category should be added at the top of the category tree, not at every category in the middle of it. Also see that this was discussed and rejected before, here on more content-related grounds. I think it was discussed at great length, not specifically regarding the category, here, and also rejected. Debresser (talk) 22:20, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

Debresser - After reading WP:DUPCAT, it seems that Category:American people of Jewish descent should be a non-diffusing subcategory of Category:American people of Southwest Asian descent. I think we should retain my edit.

Regarding the first of the two discussions you cited: The decision there was to not make Category:Jews a subcat of Category:Asian people, because it's already a subcat of Category:Semitic peoples, which inherits from Asian people via Category:West Asian people. The issue is different here, since there is no inheritance yet from Category:American people of Southwest Asian descent.

On your second link on Ashkenazi Jews, I'm not sure how this helps your argument. The conclusion was that we should not assert European ethnogenesis and coalescence together, but only European coalescence. This does not contradict categorizing Jews (esp. in general, not just Ashkenazim) as a Southwest Asian ethnicity. Musashiaharon (talk) 07:16, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

1. Incorrect. Just look at similar categories to see that this is not done.
2. Incorrect. The inheritance is from the Jewish parent category, and that is enough.
3. I agree that that discussion was specific for Ashkenazic Jews, which is the majority of American Jews. Still, I think the discussion shows a reluctance to add these categories in general. Debresser (talk) 12:56, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

1. Perhaps it could be diffusing, but it should still be a subcat. Also,
2. There is no problem with a cat being a subcat of two parents. In fact, here it is desirable, seeing the example given in WP:SUBCAT of "British writers" being a subcat of both "Writers by nationality" and "British people by occupation." Similarly, "American people of Jewish descent" should be a subcat of both "Jewish" and "American people of Southwest Asian descent."
3. The reluctance there was only because Ashkenazim coalesced, as a distinct community among Jews, in Europe. There was no challenge to Jews in general being Middle-Eastern.

Sorry for the late reply; I was observing Rosh Hashanah. May you be inscribed and sealed for a good and sweet new year! Musashiaharon (talk) 08:53, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

So was I, so no problem here.

I agree with you, on second consideration. In general, this issue is a mess. For example, Category:British people of Jewish descent is added to Category:British people of Middle Eastern descent, while Category:Argentine people of Jewish descent is added to Category:Argentine people of Asian descent. You suggest to add Category:American people of Jewish descent to Category:American people of Southwest Asian descent. It depends, of course, on the available categories, Middle Eastern, Southwest Asian or just Asian, but I think we should use Middle Eastern, as being the most precise. Debresser (talk) 10:10, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

Agreed. Musashiaharon (talk) 01:44, 19 September 2015 (UTC)

L'shana Tovah! So what is the consensus? If you look at the category page "Category:American people of Southwest Asian descent," there are Kurdish people, Azerbaijanis, Palestinians, Iraqis, Iranians, Arabs, etc. on there and NO Jews directly presented as an ethnicity. Yes, within many of those categories exist subpages that have "American people of [Insert nationality/co-ethnicity here]-Jewish descent," but that does not mean Jews are inherently separate from each other because of where they lived/settled, as THIS category shows (with the entire list of those subcategories). Frankly, that was the whole point of the Diaspora—to separate Jews physically—even though they carried their ethnocultural roots with them through their genes and their customs and ultimately came back together, in Israel, in America, etc.

The category situation is indeed a mess, but that does not take away from the problem of omission of "American people of Jewish descent" from the category "American people of Southwest Asian descent." We can further organize the category trees for Jews, but for now, this category should duly act as a parent and subcategory for Jews on the "American people of Southwest Asian descent" page.Jeffgr9 (talk) 22:15, 22 September 2015 (UTC)

I've added this category to Category:American people of Middle Eastern descent. I think we all agree that the category tree needs better organization, but for now, the consensus is that Category:American people of Jewish descent does belong in Category:American people of Middle Eastern descent. We are not yet decided about putting this in Category:American people of Southwest Asian descent as well. I am in favor, as the ME is definitely not a subset of SWA, and SWA is arguably not a subset of ME. Therefore, I think we should put appropriate ethnicities in both. Musashiaharon (talk) 23:41, 22 September 2015 (UTC)

Since we already added "of Middle Eastern descent", "of Southwest Asian descent" is not needed any more. Debresser (talk) 17:22, 23 September 2015 (UTC)

This is what is written underneath Category:American people of Palestinian descent— Categories: [American people of Arab descent][American people of Southwest Asian descent][People of Palestinian descent][Palestine–United States relations][Palestinian American][American people of Middle Eastern descent]

This is what is written underneath Category:American people of Arab descent— Categories: [American people by ethnic or national origin][American people of Middle Eastern descent][Arab American][North American people of Arab descent][People of Arab descent][American people of Southwest Asian descent]

This is what is written underneath Category:American People of Kurdish descent— Categories: [American people by ethnic or national origin][American people of Middle Eastern descent][Arab American][North American people of Arab descent][People of Arab descent][American people of Southwest Asian descent]

Jews are clearly omitted from the Category:American people of Soutwest Asian descent list, and it does NOT make sense. These groups include BOTH categories, and so should Jews. Jeffgr9 (talk) 09:45, 24 September 2015 (UTC)

No further argument here. You have proven your point. Debresser (talk) 09:59, 24 September 2015 (UTC)

All right then, I will add "Category:American people of Southwest Asian descent" back to this page.Jeffgr9 (talk) 13:32, 24 September 2015 (UTC)

References

This was not implemented, and in any case is not a good idea. There are several problems with this idea. 1. There are no, or almost no, other Jewish descent category where a Middle East or Southwest Asia category is present. 2. This would be factually incorrect, for example in the case of proselytes. 3. Jews don't usually consider themselves as being of Middle East descent, let alone Asian descent. 4. Descent categories loose their relevance after a few generations, all the more so after a few millennia. 5. This has been discussed many times over the years 2014-2017, at the parent category Category:People of Jewish descent, and there is no consensus for these categories, which indeed have remained off that category page since 2017 (with a small edit war in November 2019). Debresser (talk) 13:33, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

1. Irrelevant and circular. This type of argument would preclude any addition to any content. 2. That would be an objection if we included American Jews under American people of Jewish descent, but we're not doing that here. This category isn't about who is Jewish. It's about Jewish descent, and so we're already excluding proselytes unless they have Jewish ancestry. 3. Usualness is hardly relevant for categorizations, especially nested categories. The important factors are usefulness and correctness. This is a normal part of how categories work. Besides which, there is explicit guidance on multiple category memberships within the same inheritance chain from WP:DUPCAT:

> These are called non-diffusing subcategories. They provide an exception to the general rule that pages are not placed in both a category and its subcategory.... Subcategories defined by gender, ethnicity, religion, and sexuality should almost always be non-diffusing subcategories.

4. There is no definition of "descent" that implies expiration. The informational usefulness (for genetics here, legally with regard to law of return, and heuristically for culture, worldview, religions, and language) of descent remains, going all the way back to whatever origins of the people distinguish them from other peoples. It is offensive to suggest that descent is erased after a few generations. 5. Again, refer to the explicit guidance from WP:DUPCAT above. These multiple categorizations are accurate and useful, and are fully compliant with WP policy. Musashiaharon (talk) 02:10, 4 July 2020 (UTC)

1. I am sorry, but you are clearly mistaken in this case. If these were new categories, your argument would be true, but these are categories that have existed for the longest time, and the fact that they are lacking a certain parent category is indeed an indication, that here is no consensus for addition of that parent category. Your argument seems to state that here is no such thing as a "stable" or "consensus" version, and that is simply a faulty argument. 2. Again you are mistaken. But I should have been more precise. I meant descendants of proselytes. They are of Jewish descent, but not of Middle Eastern descent. Not even by your understanding of that term. 3. I am not disputing WP:DUPCAT. I am disputing the correctness of the category itself. 4. It is not offensive. It is a fact of life, that most people don't much care about descent after a certain amount of generations. Not about their own descent and not about the descent of other people. Exceptions always exist, but I am talking about most people. 5. The fact remains that consensus is against these categories, so apparently these guidelines lend themselves to interpretation. I, for example, am aware of these same guidelines, and have been so for over a decade, and do not think these proposed categories are useful or even relevant and correct. Debresser (talk) 00:58, 5 July 2020 (UTC)

Does this category include the children of converted Jews?

I'm not finding any reference for how this category applies to children, grandchildren, etc. of people who have converted to Judaism from another religion. For example would the children of Ivanka Trump be in this category? Any assistance or reference on the criteria for how this category is applied is most appreciated. Lexlex (talk) 17:09, 18 June 2019 (UTC)

I think this is obviously so. Conversion makes somebody Jewish, so their offspring will be of Jewish descent.

Also, please don't forget that this category is for those who are of Jewish descent without being Jewish themselves. Ivanka Trump's children are Jewish themselves, so should rather be categorized in Category:American Jews. Debresser (talk) 23:00, 19 June 2019 (UTC)

Agree with Debresser. Jayjg ^(talk) 13:04, 20 June 2019 (UTC)

Thanks very much for the help, but I'm not still clear on where I can reference this. Is there a page that describes the rules somewhere? I can think of a few silly examples that just illustrate that looking this up could be tricky: If Ivanka Trump and her children converted to Scientology, would her children still be "of Jewish descent" and be in this category? If someone is forcibly converted out of Judaism (e.g. During the inquisition or posthumously through something like Baptism for the dead) does it still apply to their children - meaning is there something about free will of the parent and how it applies? I would imagine there is some reference and that's what I'm looking for. Where are these rules laid out? (e.g. in the Torah or somewhere else?) Thanks again. Lexlex (talk) 12:32, 25 June 2019 (UTC)

As Debresser already stated, Ivanka Trump's children aren't "of Jewish descent", they are Jewish. The rules are Wikipedia's; if there are reliable sources indicating that an individual has Jewish ancestry, then they would be of Jewish descent. Jayjg ^(talk) 14:04, 25 June 2019 (UTC)

What are the rules if the membership status of the parent changes or is questionable and where can we find them? E.g. For people who do not consider themselves Jewish and whose parents' status has changed for whatever reason. I'm looking for a reference, not an opinion on one specific case. Lexlex (talk) 15:16, 25 June 2019 (UTC)

Jews are an ethnoreligious group; one cannot retroactively changes ones' Jewish parents to being not-Jews. What kind of "reference" do you mean? Jayjg ^(talk) 16:27, 25 June 2019 (UTC)

Some kind of Wikipedia policy or guideline, I guess is what Lexlex is looking for. I see nothing wrong with my explanation, based on common sense and my decade of experience on Wikipedia. There is the explanation at Category:People of Jewish descent, if he wants some "reference". As you can see, I was instrumental in making that page. Debresser (talk) 18:26, 25 June 2019 (UTC)

@Debresser:, it's not always that simple, though. For example, Dustin Hoffman is in categories "American people of Romanian-Jewish descent" "American people of Ukrainian-Jewish descent". Does he belong there? Are those categories only for people who are not Jews, or do those categories indicate where someone's Jewish ancestors came from? Jayjg ^(talk) 13:39, 27 June 2019 (UTC)

The second. As can be seen from the fact that he is also in the "Jewish American male actors" category. Debresser (talk) 18:05, 27 June 2019 (UTC)