Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2024 August 7

Welcome to the Wikipedia Humanities Reference Desk Archives
The page you are currently viewing is a transcluded archive page. While you can leave answers for any questions shown below, please ask new questions on one of the current reference desk pages.

August 7

List of the most important 19th c. poems in the Dutch language

Anyone knows where I could find a list of the most important 19th c. poems in the Dutch language? I mean the kind of poems that are in most anthologies and that everyone in Belgium the Flanders and the Netherlands (at least in principle) have all heard about (if not actually heard or read). I don't need the texts (which I should be able to find online) but only their titles and authors. 178.51.2.117 (talk) 13:22, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

Here's a list of the poets featured in Gerrit Komrij's anthology De Nederlandse poëzie van de 19de en 20ste eeuw in 1000 en enige gedichten. It also includes 20th century poets, of course, but if you scroll to the bottom, there's a separate overview of those poets who died before 1900. (I realize you asked for poems, not poets, but maybe this will help you).---Sluzzelin talk 19:44, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

Yes it does somewhat. Thanks. 178.51.2.117 (talk) 23:56, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

"... that everyone in Flanders and the Netherlands have heard about," is quite a barrier. I (native Dutch) went over that list of poets and recognised 27 names, most of them from the 20th century. I may have read poems by 5 of them. PiusImpavidus (talk) 09:03, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

"At least in principle": people who've been through high school and have been paying attention.178.51.2.117 (talk) 19:35, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Those who haven't would know two of those poets: Annie M.G. Schmidt, known for her children's poems, which have been staple food at kindergarten and the lower classes of primary school for decades, and whatever poet a nearby street was named after. PiusImpavidus (talk) 09:12, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

That's a fair comment, and I know close to nothing at all about Dutch poetry (hangs head in shame). I've posted a request for help at the WikiProject Netherlands: Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Netherlands#19th_century_Dutch_language_poetry:_Request_for_input_at_the_reference_desk. ---Sluzzelin talk 16:19, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

I've asked the most stupid AI (Microsoft's Copilot that comes with Edge) for the "20 best known 19th century poems in the Dutch language" and this is what it came up with:

'Wien Neêrlands Bloed" - Hendrik Tollens

"De Zilvervloot" - Jan Pieter Heije

"De Moerbeitoppen Ruischten" - Nicolaas Beets (Hildebrand)

"De Taal der Liefde" - Everhardus Johannes Potgieter

"De Blinde Dichter" - Willem Bilderdijk

"De Overtocht" - François HaverSchmidt (Piet Paaltjens)

"De Gids" - Conrad Busken Huet

"De Schelde" - Guido Gezelle

"De Leekens" - Guido Gezelle

"De Zang der Zee" - Isaäc da Costa

"De Zwijger" - Isaäc da Costa

"De Zomerzotheid" - Willem Kloos

"De Nieuwe Gids" - Willem Kloos

"De Zwarte Zwaan" - Herman Gorter

"Mei" - Herman Gorter

"De Zang van de Stervende" - Jan Jakob Lodewijk ten Kate

"De Zang van de Zee" - Jan Jakob Lodewijk ten Kate

"De Zang van de Zee" - Adriaan Loosjes

"De Zang van de Zee" - Carel Godfried Withuys

"De Zang van de Zee" - Maria Petronella Woesthoven

Now when I say "the most stupid AI" I'm not exaggerating. The number of errors that I personally notice all the time is hard to believe. Here I am, to begin with, a bit suspicious of five different poems by five different poets all called "De Zang van de Zee" (one is actually "De Zang der Zee"). And there could be other errors. But leaving that aside, how many of these have you heard of? Would you agree that those that are real are among the best known 19th century poems? 178.51.2.117 (talk) 19:35, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

The first two are the lyrics of songs; the first, "Wien Neêrlands Bloed", was even for some time the Dutch national anthem, and I think most Dutch people know the song "De Zilvervloot". If song lyrics count, "In een Groen Knollenland" (Jan Goeverneur, 1866) is better known than most or all of the other eighteen poems on Copilot's list, but I would not include such song lyrics in an anthology of poems.  --Lambiam 08:12, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

The only one on the list (apart from the first two) that I remember having heard of while residing in the Low Countries is Gorter's Mei; people that I met could even recite some lines (but not all 4,381 of them). Another one, not on the list, is "De Zelfmoordenaar" by Piet Paaltjens.

I could not find a poem "De Overtocht" by Paaltjens. If the poem was well known, it should have come up. There is a poem with that title by Hendrik Marsman, published posthumously in 1941. Does Copilot also make up things?  --Lambiam 08:43, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Marsman wrote the poem of the century, which is very well known, but of course is 20th century.

I've heard of "Wien Neêrlands Bloed" and "De Zilvervloot". Those are the kind of songs school children had to sing on market square on Queen's day back in the 1950s. The refrain of "De Zilvervloot" is still pretty well known. I've never heard the full songs. I've also heard of "Mei", but never heard or read it. "In een groen knollenland" is well known too, and because it's so short, people are somewhat likely to know the full text. PiusImpavidus (talk) 10:24, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

"Does Copilot also make up things?" I'm pretty sure it does. Here's an example of the kind of things it does. It's a digression, so I'm smalling it. I asked something about Scissor Sister. When it was done it suggested some follow-up questions. It likes to keep you glued there so it always suggests follow-up questions. One of them was "How do Scissor Sister write their lyrics?" (or something like that). According to their answer one of the features of their lyric writing was that they write "in character". I ask, what do you mean "in character", using imaginary alter egos, like Fernando Pessoa's heteronyms? (It was I who made the mistake of introducing Pessoa in the conversation) Copilot answers: (this is textually cut and pasted from its answer which I kept because it was so preposterous): "Scissor Sisters' Alter Egos: Scissor Sisters, an American pop rock band, embraced the concept of alter egos or "heteronyms." Each member of the band created distinct personas to write from different perspectives. Here are some of their key alter egos: Alberto Caeiro: A bucolic poet with a simple, nature-focused outlook. Ricardo Reis: A melancholic poet influenced by classical themes and stoicism. Álvaro de Campos**: A mysterious and avant-garde poet with a modernist sensibility. These alter egos allowed Scissor Sisters to explore diverse themes and styles, enriching their musical universe." Alberto Caeiro, Ricardo Reis and Álvaro de Campos have absolutely nothing to do with Scissor Sisters. They are among Pessoa's heteronyms. Copilot made them into Scissor Sisters alter egos just like that (I assume just because I had mentioned Pessoa in my question).178.51.2.117 (talk) 16:41, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

One candidate: the epitaph by De Schoolmeester (1808–1858) for the poet Hubert Kornelisz Poot: Hier ligt Poot, / Hij is dood. ("Here lies Poot, / He is dead.")  --Lambiam 08:19, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

The book Domweg gelukkig, in de Dapperstraat: de bekendste gedichten uit de Nederlandse literatuur,^[1] referenced in the article Herinnering aan Holland linked to above, presents the selected poems in chronoological order; the numbers 61 to 109 are from the 19th century.  --Lambiam 03:05, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

M855A1 and the Hague Conventions of 1899

This document[2] describes how several US rounds, like the M852 and M118LR, are tested and found to the compliant under the Hague Conventions of 1899 and 1907.

1. Has the new US M855A1 round undergone similar testing?

2. Is there a publicly available source to show #1?

I tried googling "Hague 1899 XXXX" for any other US round and plenty of good primary sources came up (including the source I gave).

But strangely enough, searching for "Hague 1899 M855A1", "Hague JAG M855A1", "Hague JAG corp M855A1", "M855A1 JAG legal review" or other similar queries only turn up news articles or forum posts, none of which link to any useful secondary or primary sources. OptoFidelty (talk) 19:58, 7 August 2024 (UTC)