Wikipedia:No original research/Noticeboard

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This page is for requesting input on possible original research. Ask for advice here regarding material that might be original research or original synthesis. Include links to the relevant article(s). Make an attempt to familiarize yourself with the no original research policy before reporting issues here. You can also post here if you are unsure whether the content is considered original research. Sections older than 28 days archived by MiszaBot II. (For help, see Wikipedia:Purge) If you mention specific editors, please notify them. You may use {{subst:NORN-notice}} to do so.
Additional notes: "Original research" includes unpublished facts, arguments, speculation, and ideas; and any unpublished analysis or synthesis of published material that serves to advance a position. Such content is prohibited on Wikipedia. For volunteers wishing to mark a discussion resolved, use {{Resolved|Your reason here ~~~~}} at the top of the section.
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OR at White ethnostate

White ethnostate has an entire section listing "Historical attempts to create White ethnostates". The problem is that there are zero sources describing any of these as "attempts to create White ethnostates". Editors came to the conclusion that they are by taking the definition of "White ethnostate" from one source and then applying it to historical events described in other sources, which is textbook WP:SYNTH. The entire section needs to be removed. I proposed doing so on the talk page, but editors there don't consider this an OR problem, even though they admit the term "White ethnostate" was coined recently and there are no sources applying it to the historical events in question. Un assiolo (talk) 13:22, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

for context i highly recommend reading the whole discussion at Talk:White ethnostate#Nazi Germany as a "White ethnostate", especially User:Grayfell comment "One of the problems here is that the article is not about the term 'white ethnostate', it is about the concept of a white ethnostate. We requires that sources directly support attached statements, but we do not require that they use any specific wording to do so. "Ethnostate" is a relatively recent term which appears to have been coined around 1990, and reliable sources are free to use other terms to describe this concept." wikipedia is not a dictionary Gooduserdude (talk) 14:51, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Suppose this were about a different term – for example, fascism. Would it be acceptable to take a definition of fascism from one source and combine it with a source describing a politician's words or actions, and then claim the politician is a fascist, without a source explicitly saying so? Clearly not. How is this any different?

"Ethnostate" is a very specific term with a very specific meaning, while the "historical attempts" described are generic racism. That is why I am nitpicking about sources: there are no sources because these historical events do not fit the definition. --Un assiolo (talk) 16:04, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

This is textbook OR. Editors are not to connect past events with modern concepts unless a source does so for them. In this particular case, it's particularly dubious. Nazi Germany didn't believe in "white" supremacy (ask the Slavs); they believed in Nordic/Aryan supremacy. JDiala (talk) 21:37, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

Tim walz

The page states that Tim Walz achieved the rank of Command Sergeant Major however this is inaccurate because he did not complete the requirements to maintain and keep that rank and was instead later demoted. For further information see: https://youtube.com/sVMkvv8PQhk — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1700:2090:105F:5DD2:8686:3633:9D5B (talk) 00:13, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

The page states that Tim Walz achieved the rank of Command Sergeant Major

He did attain that rank.

to maintain and keep that rank and was instead later demoted

How can you be demoted from something you never attained?

Answer should be proof enough for you. Lostsandwich (talk) 05:34, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

The article does not mention the demotion. It should. Blueboar (talk) 10:31, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

1) Why should it? Noting the highest rank attained is the policy for infoboxes.

2) It does mention it. Lostsandwich (talk) 11:33, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

How is this original research? Seems like it's directly from multiple sources that are cited. It's also mentioned in the article that he didn't fulfill the requirements to retain the position.

Per the Tim Walz Wikipedia page: "public affairs officer for the Minnesota National Guard in 2018 said it was "legitimate for Walz to say he served as a command sergeant major", while Walz's former battalion commander, John Kolb, described his usage of the title as "frocking"."

This isn't the place for this dispute, rather, you should use the talk page to gain consensus for changing it. — BerryForPerpetuity (talk) 23:24, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

Apparently, the National Guard will reduce someone's rank after retirement because of their short service in that rank. But how is that different from Donald Trump who achieved the rank of commander in chief but lost that rank when he left the presidency? It certainly doesn't mean he was never commander in chief. TFD (talk) 02:16, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

"Commander in chief" is a title, not a rank. It is attached to the office, unlike rank, which is attached to an individual (enlisted) or their commission (officers).⇒SWATJester ^{Shoot Blues, Tell VileRat!} 07:57, 24 August 2024 (UTC)

Elliot Rodger effect

I think an editor is trying to create their own "term" with the incel related "Elliot Rodger effect", which I cannot source to anything. Suggestions the article should be renamed Legacy of the 2014 Isla Vista killings, were ignored and a redirect created. I suspect there is OR in this article (the title is OR), and that this should be merged with 2014 Isla Vista killings. Thoughts? Aszx5000 (talk) 15:52, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, this term straight up does not exist. It barely even exists on incel message boards, never mind any reliable source. Its clearly an attempt at riffing off the Columbine effect, but it just does not exist and should not be the name of the article. Macxcxz (talk) 20:57, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

I also think that as well as renaming to Legacy of the 2014 Isla Vista killings is should also be merged with 2014 Isla Vista killings as it is a contentious topic (i.e. 2014 Isla Vista killings is ECP locked). Aszx5000 (talk) 10:04, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

Definitely should be renamed but I'd even argue the article should be deleted entirely / merged into the main page of its parent article, which is what I've argued on the AfD someone created. StewdioMACK (talk) 14:54, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

Battle of Jammu (1808)

I was having another look at this article, is this a possible hoax, trash article? Govvy (talk) 13:03, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

The battle itself looks like fiction, but a campaign does seem to have occured in Jammu during that year. In fact it's odd this has an article and not Battle of Sialkot, which does seem to have happened based on the sources from Hari Singh Nalwa. Seems a new article for Sialkot is needed with an aftermath section detailing events in Jammu during 1808. HetmanTheResearcher (talk) 04:21, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (AP faction) and Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (EK faction)

Spworld2 has added 1989 as the year of formation in Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (AP faction) citing a source that does not say about the year of year of formation of Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (AP faction), while Spworld2 added 1926 as the year of formation of Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (EK faction). Is this original research?. Having nothing to discuss Spworld2 resort to the use of the WP:CONFLICT which Spworld2 clearly has since Spworld2 is not ready to produce the sources for the Spworld2's claim, which is also EK Samastha's claim of being itself the original or real Samastha. Neutralhappy (talk) 08:53, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

The source Spworld2 used to say the formation of Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (AP faction) was in 1989, in the infobox, is this one. This source does not say about the formation of Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (AP faction), rather the split of Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama in 1989. So kindly remove it from the infobox. Neutralhappy (talk) 09:04, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

I have informed Spworld2 about this discussion. Neutralhappy (talk) 09:09, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

a discussion going on - Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#Samastha_Kerala_Jem-iyyathul_Ulama_(AP_faction)_&_Samastha_Kerala_Jem-iyyathul_Ulama_(EK_faction) Spworld2 (talk) 11:02, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

Asking about the same dispute on two noticeboards is not helpful.

That said… I don’t see an Original Research issue here. BOTH of the modern organizations claim to be the “true” continuation of the original. There are plenty of sources that note that this is the case. There are also sources that support the claims of one or the other. What I am getting at is this: none of the “foundation” dates originate here on WP, with a WP editor. It is a dispute that exists out there, in the real world. So it isn’t “original” for WP to state any of these dates.

As for the WP:NPOV question regarding which which “foundation” date should go with which faction - I would ask others to assist at the other discussion (over at that noticeboard). I won’t address that question here. All I am saying here is that I don’t see a WP:NOR violation in any of this. Blueboar (talk) 12:43, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

But the sources Spworld2 cited do not support the claim. If there is no source to support it it is original research. If it is not original research, both Samasthas should have the same date of formation. Neutralhappy (talk) 13:13, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

RfC on Sources and their use on Mahatma Gandhi's last hunger strike

Feedback on what the reliable sources allow us to say about the motivations and goals of Mahatma Gandhi's last hunger strike is requested at: Talk:Mahatma Gandhi RfC on Mahatma Gandhi's last hunger strike Fowler&fowler«Talk» 14:26, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

Political marriages in India

I think this is a very problematic article written like an essay and seems to have been concocted from various sources - almost none of which are about the topic "Political marriages in India" - and thus feels like WP:OR. Would appreciate more views on it. thanks. Aszx5000 (talk) 09:43, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

Screams Without Words

The article Screams Without Words has a couple of disagreements on its talk page, including ones that hinge on whether there is SYNTH in the article. A very small number of editors are involved and fresh eyes would be beneficial. Please see the talk page section "Yura Karol" in particular. BobFromBrockley (talk) 07:48, 24 August 2024 (UTC)

Broad-concept article

Please see Wikipedia talk:Broad-concept article#WP:SYNTH. --Altenmann >talk 23:07, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

Monolatry and LDS section

I have summarized this at Talk:Monolatry#LDS_section_OR. My contention is that the entire section on LDS is textbook OR. The dispute is with @Nathantibbitts13579:. I believe that, if you look at the diff edit summaries, there is no point in trying to debate content. SamuelRiv (talk) 03:05, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

From a quick look, you appear to be correct. We'd need secondary sources discussing the topic in detail and describing the LDS as monolatrous to justify inclusion of anything in relation to that organisation in the article. AndyTheGrump (talk) 03:13, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

Removal of content from Early life of Joseph Stalin

Recently, editor LenLen499833 has removed a large, well-sourced chunk of content from the article Early life of Joseph Stalin, specifically related to an affair between Stalin and an underage girl. The editor argued that the removed content did not stem from reliable sources, despite the fact that it was based on the work of several highly respected Stalin biographers such as Simon Sebag Montefiore and Stephen Kotkin. In my opinion, their arguments against the researchers (see the 2nd section titled "Relation with Lidia Pereprygina" on Talk:Early life of Joseph Stalin) are original research: They basically say that they know better than the published researchers because of a) a dubious birth record for an alleged child of Stalin's affair, and b) doubts about some of the sources used by the biographers.
I tried to explain WP:No original research to them, without much success. Then, I requested third-party opinions from other editors who had often edited Stalin articles. One responded, and suggested that we rewrite the section to clearly attribute claims and showcase any valid concerns over the historicity of the affair. I agreed to the idea, but LenLen499833 opposed any restoration of the sourced content because they believe that all of it is just false / lies, based of their own interpretation of the matter.
As I cannot find common ground with LenLen499833, I wanted to ask here whether their removal of content is indeed original research or whether I'm in the wrong in this regard. Thanks in advance. Applodion (talk) 21:00, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

If there are sources that discuss the alleged affair and child, and you are merely reporting what they say (without going beyond what they say), then you are not in violation of WP:NOR. The material does not originate with Wikipedia. There may be issues with other policies and guidelines, but not NOR. Blueboar (talk) 13:25, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

@Blueboar: My question concerned whether LenLen499833's arguments constituted OR - i.e. whether it was fine to remove an entire well-sourced section of content based on LenLen499833's interpretation of birth registers and primary sources. Applodion (talk) 14:13, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

Any arguments in talk page is not OR: this policy is about article content. Regarding primary sources: our policies say that primary sources should be used only as a corroboration of the article content based on secondary sources. Because a Wikipedian is not in a position to judge primary sources. Heck, today we even cannot be sure that the sources found online are authentic.:-) That said, yes, the issue is NOT OR, but article content and must be discussed on article talk page. We have a procedure for dispute resolution. Initially it was between you two, then you had a third opinion. Pleas suggest a compromise solution along the lines I outlined in the article talk page (provide the suggested text in the talk)). If this will not help, the next step is invoking broader community via WP:RFC. --Altenmann >talk 16:58, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

Ellen G. White

A discussion has started at the talk page
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
At Ellen G. White#Theology there is a mention she was the "lone exception". I don't know where those words come from, neither whether they should be stated in the voice of Wikipedia. I don't know whom to notify about this thread. tgeorgescu (talk) 18:37, 12 September 2024 (UTC) Number one, you don't start here at a noticeboard. You use the article's talk page. You also look in the contribution history and find out who made that addition, then you civilly ask them about it. There is no need for dispute resolution at this stage. So go back to the talk page and start there. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 18:47, 12 September 2024 (UTC) @Tgeorgescu: The sentence has a footnote and it is supported by the previous text. Why you are questioning this? --Altenmann >talk 19:50, 12 September 2024 (UTC)