Wikipedia:Featured picture candidates/Image:Prokaryote cell diagram.svg

Prokaryote Cell Diagram edit

Edit 1

Reason: This is a very well done diagram. It is acurate, labeled,
Proposed caption: A diagram of a simple Prokaryote. Prokarya are one of the two domains of life, the other being Eukarya. They are characterized by having simple internal structures lacking cell nuclei. The domain Prokarya includes the kindoms Bacteria and Archaea.
Articles this image appears in: Cell (biology), Prokaryote, Cell theory, Mesosome, Bacterial cell structure, Bacteria
Creator: User:LadyofHats

Support as nominator TheOtherSiguy 23:18, 19 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Support nice, and valuable. --Beyond silence 17:52, 20 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Support edit 1nice, and valuable.--Beyond silence 12:03, 23 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Support edit 1 - I also found the gray cells in the background distracting, so removed them in edit 1. Note that I accidentally overwrote the original file, so now the original is called "Image:Prokaryote cell diagram-orig.svg". --Sean

13:56, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Support edit 1 - Highly encylopaedic and informative, without any unnecessary elements (the gray stuff in the original). --Aqwis 14:34, 22 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
What is the difference between the yellow and the red on the outside of the cell? As far as I can tell, only the yellow is labelled (capsule). Enuja (talk) 21:15, 22 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I found this confusing as well, but don't know enough to change it. --Sean 22:01, 22 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Bacteria have a membrane inside their cell wall and outside the cell wall. The red is the membrane, the yellow is the cell wall. The "capsule" is usually the wall and membrane together. I'll take a look in Brock & Maddigan later tonight, if I get the chance, to see that I remember that correctly. --EncycloPetey 22:52, 22 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I've checked. The capsule is a polysaccharide layer external to the cell wall in some bacteria. It is also termed the "glycoalyx". It is not a specific structure. In the diagram here, it would be part of the outer surface of the outer membrane. Probably, it should not appear in the diagram for that reason. --EncycloPetey 05:00, 23 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

A cell's cell wall is its outermost structure, providing protection for the organelles inside. I don't think having a vulnerable membrane around a rigid structure is a good idea; it should be the other way round. --Bowlhover 00:36, 23 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

You'll have to convince the bacteria of that, not me. (And you might check your own cells, which also are bounded by a wall-free membrane.) I have checked Brock & Maddigan's textbook Biology of Microorganisms, 7th ed. (the book is considered the standard for universities in the US). Page 63 describes the inner cytoplasmic membrane, bounded by the peptidoglycan cell wall, which in turn is surrounded by the outer membrane in Gram-negative bacteria. Gram-positive bacteria do not have an outer membrane.

Note also that the cell wall is not a rigid structure in either plants or bacteria. If cell walls were truly rigid, plants could not wilt (think about it). The cell wall is a woven flexible framework that is made rigid primarily by the osmotic pressure exerted from the inside by the cell inside its membrane. Further reinforcement is made in vascular plants by the addition of lignin to the walls once primary growth is complete. --EncycloPetey 04:53, 23 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Support Edit 1 For removing unnecessary gray. NyyDave 04:23, 23 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose all, as per recent drupe nom, as a diagram it's simple and informative enough, but I don't really see what makes it outstanding. Some other issues with the scientific accuracy of the diagram: scale seems arbitrary, e.g., the capsule appears to be too thick, the cell wall and membrane are about the same thickness, and the flagellum is also far too beefy; dual coloured capsule is very confusing; why are there no plasmids shown? (these are a common structure in prokaryotes); 'plasma membrane' should probably be 'cell membrane' as it's a more common term; why is the F on flagellum capital? (all other second words are lower case); the DNA/nucleoid appears to be hedging its bets on which of these it's trying to illustrate; inclusion of mesosomes may be debatable. OK. --jjron 07:57, 23 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Support edit 1. Crisp, informative and interesting. Everything I look for in a good diagram. Mgm|^(talk) 12:24, 23 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose I agree with jjrons comments; except the point about organelles - I expect that the intention of this diagram was to show the basic features of a prokaryotic cell - prokaryotes may have all sorts of stuff inside including organelles, plasmids, vacuoles, endospores, inclusion bodies etc - but they're not common to all prokaryotes (neither is the mesosome). I think illustrating a typical prokaryotic cell is kind of pointless even though all textbooks do it - a more encyclopedic option would be an illustration showing a typical non-photsynthetic gram positive and gram negative specimens. --Peta 14:26, 23 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
information Hello everyone, first let me thank you for promoting supporting and otherwise making your comments on my image, will try to answer all your questions here:
- the grey bateria i aded them becouse someone made me the coment that it would help the iage having "deepnes" and also see that bateria are in groups. if now you want to take them out then go ahead, just dont ask me to place them in again.
- the yellow is only a cut in the red surface, true i could have made the cut more red or the bacteria more yellowish. i still can if you want. as seen in my sources the bacteria is formed by a thick capsule, below this capsule there is a cell wall and below this one there is a plasma membrane.
- scale was taken out of my sources, i am not biologist. i am a illustrator and as such my images are as acurate and as good as my sources. None of my sources makes mention of any plasmids. so i did not do them. if you can show me a more acurate source then i will gladly improve my image adding all those terms. right now that what you see is the best i could do with what i had.
- finally a small personal note: As illustrator, i do not pretend to do outstanding, but simply informative diagrams. what i seek is to explain things not to create art.-LadyofHats 15:18, 23 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  Please do not change the yellow and red. The yellow is the cell wall, it lies between the two red membranes. It is fine. Your sources describing "capsules" are out-of-date. The term "capsule" was used for the outer covering before microbiologists determined the actual structure of the surrounding envelope. The term "capsule" is now only used informally to describe that portion of the wall or outer membrane consisting of polysaccharides. It is not a specific structure. I suspect that your sources did not mention plasmids because they are a rather recent discovery, and if your sources mention a capsule, then they must have been at least 20 years out-of-date. --EncycloPetey 15:34, 23 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  Plasmids were discovered over 50 years ago - I'm at a bit of a loss as to why plasmids aren't shown more commonly in these kind of diagrams - this is the only one I've seen. --Peta 05:23, 25 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Re LadyofHats: "As illustrator, i do not pretend to do outstanding, but simply informative diagrams. what i seek is to explain things not to create art" - I think you do an excellent job of this, but this is the very point I have tried to make in my recent oppose votes. I think a lot your diagrams that get nominated here are very useful and simple to understand, but not necessarily something that makes you think 'what an amazing diagram'; in other words, not necessarily something that should be an FP.
Re EncycloPetey: "The yellow is the cell wall" - no it's not, the yellow is clearly labeled as the capsule, the cell wall is labeled as the light green layer below the thick yellow capsule layer (this is the second time you've repeated this mistake). So it's not fine; either your claims are wrong or the diagram is mislabeled, and either way there's a problem.
Overall I don't have a particular problem with this diagram being in articles (as has been the case with some other images), though as Peta said "illustrating a typical prokaryotic cell is kind of pointless". This is OK for what it's trying to do, but there's so many compromises needed to make a 'typical' prokaryote that even if was done perfectly and presented as a lovely artistic diagram there could still be debates about it, and that would still make me question it's value as an FP. --jjron 08:24, 24 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

RE:Jjron. I have no idea what green layer you're talking about. Even in the full size illustration I cannot see a green layer. In any case, I have not repeated a mistake; I have repeated a correction. There is an important difference between a mistake and a correction. Perhaps you will understand the third time I say it: In this diagram, the yellow is the cell wall and the label "capsule" should be removed. I don't know how I can make that correction any clearer. --EncycloPetey 12:46, 24 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

As I said "either your claims are wrong or the diagram is mislabeled, and either way there's a problem"; so yes you are now making it clear that you believe the diagram is wrong (or at the least incorrectly labeled). Given how you appeared to be defending the diagram I was assuming you thought it was correct. However you may need to check your monitor or something if you can't see the pale green layer that is labeled as the cell wall (can you really not see that the 'cell wall' label is pointing to a different place than the 'capsule' label? This layer is about the same thickness as the red 'plasma membrane'. I'm not being facetious, but can you see two shades of green in the cytoplasm demarcating the 'cut' through the cell? The pale green cell wall is about the same colour as the paler green part of the cytoplasm). And that makes things a bit more complex, because according to what you're saying the capsule should be relabeled as the cell wall, but then there is an unlabeled green layer between that and the cell membrane (and that then compounds the other issues that have been raised above). --jjron 08:35, 25 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

And now you are switching from saying "repeated mistake" to "appeared to defend". It is not my monitor that is the problem. I have looked at the diagram on two different monitors connected through two different networks, using two different platforms, and two dofferent browsers. It is not a monitor problem. --EncycloPetey 12:57, 25 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

And so the problems of interpreting people's full meaning from what they write... OK, if you're claiming the yellow is labeled as the cell wall then it's a "repeated mistake"; I was trying to 'assume good faith' by accepting that this wasn't the case and you were actually saying the diagram was mislabeled. If you don't want to accept that, it doesn't worry me. And fine, you've looked at it on different systems - so can you still not see the labels point to different places, and can you see the different greens? --jjron 14:55, 25 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I didn't claim anything about the labelling. Where did you see me say "this is labeled" or "that is labeled"? I said the yellow is the cell wall, and I don't care what the labels may or may not say. You seem to be more concerned about the art that the biology, which is fine, but I'm talking about the biology of bacteria. Assuming good faith does not mean assuming the other person is wrong; it does mean listening to what the other person is saying. Go back and re-read all the postings I've made above. Nowhere did I ever talk about how the yellow and red are labelled; I spoke about what they represent in terms of bacterial biology. I am starting from pulbished sources about bacterial structure and bringin that to this discussion. I am not starting from the diagram. Does that make everything clear yet? And , yes, I can see two different greens inside the bacterial cell, I just can't see any kind of green in the place you're describing. I've trying looking on both CRT and LCD monitors. --EncycloPetey 15:36, 25 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

wikipedia is a cheat i used to get all my homework stuff off here and its all lies and crap and visually it's more informative than stunning. I'm not sure that you appreciate that a 'correct' image with incorrect labels is incorrect (and I'm talking biology here, not art). I apologise that I have made the assumption that you were in fact talking about this entire image, as is usual here, when you have now made it clear that you were not. But by your comments it seems you don't appreciate that that is the nature of discussions on FPC, to focus discussion on the image that is nominated, and to get images both correct and appealing. To put it simply, what is the point of promoting an image to FP if it's incorrectly labeled? --jjron 08:56, 26 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I'll point out that not everyone will post comments to fit such narrow expectations of what they should post. Next time do not limit your expectations so much. I apologize for assuming that you were talking about information, when you have made it clear that your purpose was to simply be pedantic and chiding about the nature of the discussion instead of having the actual discussion. --EncycloPetey 12:44, 26 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Support edit 1 the removal of the grey looks great. --ZeWrestler ^Talk 23:10, 23 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Promoted Image:Prokaryote_cell_diagram.svg MER-C 08:26, 26 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Rather disappointing when the image is not exactly scientifically accurate. --jjron 09:03, 26 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]