Wikipedia:Featured picture candidates/First colored senator and reps.jpg
Voting period is over. Please don't add any new votes. Voting period ends on 16 Jul 2012 at 09:58:10 (UTC)
- Reason
- This historical image from 1872 depicts the first elected African American US senator and representatives
- Articles in which this image appears
- List of African-American Republicans, History of the United States Republican Party, African Americans in the United States Congress, List of African-American officeholders during the Reconstruction
- FP category for this image
- Wikipedia:Featured pictures/People/Political
- Creator
- Currier and Ives, uploaded by Lionelt, restored by User:Adam Cuerden
- Support as nominator --– Lionel (talk) 09:58, 7 July 2012 (UTC)
Copyright of restorations discussion
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The restoration is no longer available for download. I'm sorry it's come to this, but I have zero tolerance for bullying and active breaking of the law, particularly when the alternative is that you follow basic human decency, and give people the requested credit for their work. 86.139.213.143 (talk) 14:48, 8 July 2012 (UTC)
Restoration is not a mechanical process. It requires a great deal of judgement and artistry. This judgement and artistry is used to try and repair things in a way that fits in with what existed. This is why restoration is generally *not* done on one-off, deliberative works like paintings for commons; however, as lithographs are a semi-randomly created process, where etching by acid creates random pits, and the amount of these pits determines the darkness of that part of the image, and there will be some variation between copies due to amount of inking and paper variations. In this variation, you have enough freedom to exercise artistic judgement and do a restoration, but, outside of the basic stuff like "remove ink blotches from the white space", there's a necessary level of creative decision making to decide how to repair. To give obvious, easy-to-understand examples:in my restoration of Left Hand Bear, where the corners had been irregularly cut off to round them, in a very uneven, untidy way. I had to reconstruct those areas, including fixing some damaged text (Luckily, the LoC notes told me what it should say), and, on one corner, I actually had to fake some water damage to avoid misleading the reader by providing fine details about the sleeve that didn't exist. Another good one was my Women's Suffrage restoration, where a big chunk was simply missing, and I had to recreate the shoulder of a dress and other incidental details, without which the eye would be immediately drawn to the damage, and away from the actual image.
I'll freely admit this one was not the most difficult of restoration, and didn't have large missing areas. Work I did on this one including repairing a damaged eye, reconstructing some fabric wrinkles where damage near the middle of the image had created a long, jagged vertical line, fixing scratches and stains that damaged facial features, like a fairly wide vertical stain on one man's face, and other such work, covering most of the image. That requires creative input. Yes, the goal is to make the work blend in, but, allow me to remind you the PD-scan policy explicitly points out the bar of creativity is very low in the UK, and I'm pretty sure I've passed it. Commons can deal with ambiguity. For instance, very simple logos can't gain copyright? How simple? We don't know, so the bar of how simple is simply set at a point sufficiently low (text, geometric shapes) that it's clear cut, which lets Commons benefit from the policy, while still staying well away from anything that can get us in trouble. 17:47, 8 July 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.139.213.143 (talk)
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- Comment: for those who are interested, the png is here File:First colored senator and reps.png and the tiff is here File:17564u.tiff. – Lionel (talk) 21:18, 8 July 2012 (UTC)
- I might be able to support a JPEG version with a minor color correction to whiten up the paper some at full resolution as offered by the TIFF. I think there is probably sufficient EV for the image in these articles to warrant promotion. — raekyt 21:28, 8 July 2012 (UTC)
- I'm new to WP:FP so patience is appreciated. Correct me if I'm wrong, but according to the LOC the yellowish version is a "digital file from original print." If that is the original color, why would we correct it? If we want a "whiter" (pardon the irony) version, why not use the version LOC describes as "digital file from color film copy slide" as it is "whiter"? [3] Would it just be simpler to use the restoration by Adam (png)? – Lionel (talk) 12:23, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
- Adam is making it difficult by trying to impose a copyright where none likely exists, and that's being worked out, a possible solution has been presented to him. The yellow is due to age, paper turns yellow as it ages, specifically paper that hasn't been acid buffered and is acid free. Likely at some point the LOC did treat it so it wouldn't age anymore but the yellowing is damage already done. When it comes to these kinds of things we generally expect some form of restoration to make it look more like it originally did, and other obvious damage removed (Dust, scratches, stains, etc..). That's why I said I could support it with MINOR restoration work, but probably not as is with no changes. — raekyt 12:56, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
- I went ahead and converted Adam's restoration (png) to jpg and uploaded it. I used CC-BY-SA until the details can be sorted out--it doesn't matter for WP:FP. For good measure I uploaded Adam's png, too. But since we have the tiff I guess we should delete the png. What do you think? – Lionel (talk) 05:04, 10 July 2012 (UTC)
- Adam is making it difficult by trying to impose a copyright where none likely exists, and that's being worked out, a possible solution has been presented to him. The yellow is due to age, paper turns yellow as it ages, specifically paper that hasn't been acid buffered and is acid free. Likely at some point the LOC did treat it so it wouldn't age anymore but the yellowing is damage already done. When it comes to these kinds of things we generally expect some form of restoration to make it look more like it originally did, and other obvious damage removed (Dust, scratches, stains, etc..). That's why I said I could support it with MINOR restoration work, but probably not as is with no changes. — raekyt 12:56, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
- I'm new to WP:FP so patience is appreciated. Correct me if I'm wrong, but according to the LOC the yellowish version is a "digital file from original print." If that is the original color, why would we correct it? If we want a "whiter" (pardon the irony) version, why not use the version LOC describes as "digital file from color film copy slide" as it is "whiter"? [3] Would it just be simpler to use the restoration by Adam (png)? – Lionel (talk) 12:23, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
- Question the source is linked to http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/treasures_of_congress/Images/page_13/47a.html, but that shows this image with a white background, so why does it have a tan background here? Pine✉ 04:50, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
- Wrong source, actual link should be by the LOC id #: http://www.loc.gov/pictures/item/98501907/ — raekyt 05:34, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
- Comment Having not read the entire discussion above, I do not know who all the participants are. Yet Raeky's contention regarding copyright is actually open to rebuttal on two entirely separate bases. One is the "sweat of the brow" standard, which is so unusual that to the best of my knowledge it is unique to UK law. An alternate basis widely recognized internationally is whether the restoration itself involved significant creative decisions. For instance, this restoration of the massacre at Wounded Knee revealed four human remains and caused the Library of Congress to revise their catalog description. Naturally this discovery resulted in a conscious decision to restore the albumen print in ways that maximize the visiblity of the human bodies, which had been nearly invisible in the unrestored version. When one encounters a crude retouching attempt to conceal a politician's double chin, does one improve on the retouching or attempt to reconstruct the natural chin?[4] The amount of conscious decision-making that can go into a restoration that has basically one "right" result is described here,[5] and here[6] with the latter instance viewers interpret vastly different expressions from a few pixel changes in the eyes. There are times when a careful reconstruction includes consultation about meteorology[7] and analysis of over whether color bars (when present) are of actual value[8] or complex decisions to compensate for uneven scanner lighting or spinal distortion.[9][10] Does one preserve an ink smear as a historic printing error, or does one "clean" the smudged ink?[11] In this restoration the scan was so detailed that it had picked up the impression from an eraser rubbing that had gotten between the paper and the drafting board while the architect was filling in the background, and appeared in several places because the rubbing had moved while he shifted the paper: the original intention is pretty easy to intuit, yet there are strong arguments to be made either for restoring that intention or the actual image. In this image the photographer's intention is unknown, yet upon discovery that the background is a courthouse I made several conscious decisions to emphasize an interpretation that appealed to me--that the photograph was about the difference between law and justice. Manual restoration also reconstructs tree limbs, paper grain, and various other undertakings which, if done well, escape the notice of all but the most careful observers. In nearly every restoration where fade or yellowing exist, such as the one under discussion in the present nomination, a manual restoration involves the decision of whether to evoke a sense of newness, as here, or to eliminate certain distracting elements while maintaining an impression of oldness, as here. During my time as an editor advice came from a variety of people that enough creative decision making was going into a large portion of my work to justify copyright over the restorations; I uploaded them as public domain not because they could not qualify for copyright but in order to donate the labor and encourage digitization of more historically valuable works. The same is true of several other editors. It was a random view of the Bastille Day article that led me to this page, by the way, and had nothing to do with any of the other commenters. Durova412 16:25, 14 July 2012 (UTC)
- Basically my point was that minor modifications in restoration is likely not copyrightable, extensive recreation of missing elements from damaged originals likely might be, and the rest is a very gray area and I think none of it has ever been brought up in a court. Adam was insisting to put his edits, even minor ones like this one, into CC copyright and asserting copyrights that he likely didn't have. As was pointed out to him by numerous editors at Jimbo's page and on the Common's mailing list that sweat of the brow likely wasn't even enforceable in the UK, and that many restorations are likely not copyrightable in the United States. There was a proposal for a copyright template for Adam's work poposed on Jimbo's page but I think the conversation died and it got archived before anything was worked out. I'm aware of many of your restoration works, and I appreciate your point of view but I'm fairly sure that MOST restorations of these public domain images would not qualify as granting the restorer copyright protection, except like I said in extreme recreation of missing sections of the original. Clone work, color corrections, removing age or minor damage, is unlikely unique enough to grant copyright. Unless your aware of some court decisions about this that I'm not, it's likely never been brought before a judge, so it's purely speculation if claiming copyright on these and then trying to sue to prevent unauthorized use would be upheld in court. Thats the only way to say for sure where the threshold point is here for restorations. Noone can stop you from claiming copyright on any of your works, but it boils down to what would stand up in court if you took it to court to prevent infringement. — raekyt 23:25, 14 July 2012 (UTC)
- Whether it is CC or PD for the purposes of this FP either status is free; and the restoration looks great. Raeky, do you think the pic now qualifies for your Support !vote? – Lionel (talk) 23:45, 14 July 2012 (UTC)
- You don't have the source linked where you got Adam's restoration, that needs added, and Share Alike CC licensing is anything but free, it's EXTREMELY restrictive, and it's not what Adam released it under, I belive he released it under CC-BY, which is close to free, but not entirely free. So no, I can't support it as it is now. — raekyt 02:03, 15 July 2012 (UTC)
- With all due respect, Creative Commons is a free license. FP requires free content: if it were not free, I wouldn't be wasting everyone's time. In any event, I added the link and left a note for Adam about the license. I respect your opinion of course: I just hope you aren't penalizing me because of circumstances beyond me control. – Lionel (talk) 02:56, 15 July 2012 (UTC)
- Share Alike is one of the most restrictive clauses we allow in our licensing, it states "If you alter, transform, or build upon this work, you may distribute the resulting work only under the same or similar license to this one." It restricts commercial use, where it was once public domain it is now restricted. And by WP:AGF I'm not going to accuse you of not knowing how to use license templates, but clearly the image Adam released, at http://adamcuerden.deviantart.com/gallery/#/d56h6gm (which is the link you need to use, which has licensing info, not a DIRECT link to the image, per our policies) states it's released under CC-BY-3.0 (http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/) not what you have it listed as, so you have the WRONG LICENCE for the image, that was the point I was trying to make. The whole issue is starting to rub me the wrong way, it's a silly fight, as far as I remember Adam retired from editing wikipedia because of this same fight in the past, where he wanted to apply copyright where it probably isn't due, and absoute horrid behavior, which he of course showed here in this thread. So as far as I'm concerned the project is probably better off without his battleground attitude, even if that means we can't use his images. But if you want to use his image, you NEED TO USE THE CORRECT LICENSE HE RELEASED IT UNDER AND USE THE CORRECT LINK TO THE IMAGE THAT DISPLAYS THE LICENSE. Ok? As far as I'm concerned Im done with this thread, between this, the e-mail bombing to the lists and Jimbo's tak page this whole issue has occupied far to many peoples time for far to long and by using his image your just prolonging and provoking this fight to continue, with all due respect. — raekyt 03:25, 15 July 2012 (UTC)
- Thanks for AGF, but as it turns out I'm not well versed in license tags, and a relative newcomer to images in general. Anyway, thanks for giving me the correct link and license, I've fixed the image page.– Lionel (talk) 07:08, 15 July 2012 (UTC)
- Share Alike is one of the most restrictive clauses we allow in our licensing, it states "If you alter, transform, or build upon this work, you may distribute the resulting work only under the same or similar license to this one." It restricts commercial use, where it was once public domain it is now restricted. And by WP:AGF I'm not going to accuse you of not knowing how to use license templates, but clearly the image Adam released, at http://adamcuerden.deviantart.com/gallery/#/d56h6gm (which is the link you need to use, which has licensing info, not a DIRECT link to the image, per our policies) states it's released under CC-BY-3.0 (http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/) not what you have it listed as, so you have the WRONG LICENCE for the image, that was the point I was trying to make. The whole issue is starting to rub me the wrong way, it's a silly fight, as far as I remember Adam retired from editing wikipedia because of this same fight in the past, where he wanted to apply copyright where it probably isn't due, and absoute horrid behavior, which he of course showed here in this thread. So as far as I'm concerned the project is probably better off without his battleground attitude, even if that means we can't use his images. But if you want to use his image, you NEED TO USE THE CORRECT LICENSE HE RELEASED IT UNDER AND USE THE CORRECT LINK TO THE IMAGE THAT DISPLAYS THE LICENSE. Ok? As far as I'm concerned Im done with this thread, between this, the e-mail bombing to the lists and Jimbo's tak page this whole issue has occupied far to many peoples time for far to long and by using his image your just prolonging and provoking this fight to continue, with all due respect. — raekyt 03:25, 15 July 2012 (UTC)
- With all due respect, Creative Commons is a free license. FP requires free content: if it were not free, I wouldn't be wasting everyone's time. In any event, I added the link and left a note for Adam about the license. I respect your opinion of course: I just hope you aren't penalizing me because of circumstances beyond me control. – Lionel (talk) 02:56, 15 July 2012 (UTC)
- You don't have the source linked where you got Adam's restoration, that needs added, and Share Alike CC licensing is anything but free, it's EXTREMELY restrictive, and it's not what Adam released it under, I belive he released it under CC-BY, which is close to free, but not entirely free. So no, I can't support it as it is now. — raekyt 02:03, 15 July 2012 (UTC)
- Whether it is CC or PD for the purposes of this FP either status is free; and the restoration looks great. Raeky, do you think the pic now qualifies for your Support !vote? – Lionel (talk) 23:45, 14 July 2012 (UTC)
- Basically my point was that minor modifications in restoration is likely not copyrightable, extensive recreation of missing elements from damaged originals likely might be, and the rest is a very gray area and I think none of it has ever been brought up in a court. Adam was insisting to put his edits, even minor ones like this one, into CC copyright and asserting copyrights that he likely didn't have. As was pointed out to him by numerous editors at Jimbo's page and on the Common's mailing list that sweat of the brow likely wasn't even enforceable in the UK, and that many restorations are likely not copyrightable in the United States. There was a proposal for a copyright template for Adam's work poposed on Jimbo's page but I think the conversation died and it got archived before anything was worked out. I'm aware of many of your restoration works, and I appreciate your point of view but I'm fairly sure that MOST restorations of these public domain images would not qualify as granting the restorer copyright protection, except like I said in extreme recreation of missing sections of the original. Clone work, color corrections, removing age or minor damage, is unlikely unique enough to grant copyright. Unless your aware of some court decisions about this that I'm not, it's likely never been brought before a judge, so it's purely speculation if claiming copyright on these and then trying to sue to prevent unauthorized use would be upheld in court. Thats the only way to say for sure where the threshold point is here for restorations. Noone can stop you from claiming copyright on any of your works, but it boils down to what would stand up in court if you took it to court to prevent infringement. — raekyt 23:25, 14 July 2012 (UTC)
- Support: in my opinion there is no any problem and should not be a problem because it has good encyclopadic value. Justice007 (talk) 21:25, 15 July 2012 (UTC)
Not Promoted --Makeemlighter (talk) 18:04, 16 July 2012 (UTC)