User talk:+JMJ+/Archives/2023/March
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Category:Lithuanian commands has been nominated for merging
Category:Lithuanian commands has been nominated for merging. A discussion is taking place to decide whether this proposal complies with the categorization guidelines. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the categories for discussion page. Thank you. Estopedist1 (talk) 08:09, 10 March 2023 (UTC)
Category:Lithuanian generals in other armies has been nominated for merging
Category:Lithuanian generals in other armies has been nominated for merging. A discussion is taking place to decide whether this proposal complies with the categorization guidelines. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the categories for discussion page. Thank you. Estopedist1 (talk) 09:13, 10 March 2023 (UTC)
Territorial Unit (Lithuania) moved to draftspace
An article you recently created, Territorial Unit (Lithuania), is not suitable as written to remain published. It needs more in-depth coverage about the subject itself, with citations from reliable, independent sources in order to show it meets WP:GNG. It should have at least three, to be safe. And please remember that interviews, as primary sources, do not count towards GNG.(?) Information that can't be referenced should be removed (verifiability is of central importance on Wikipedia). I've moved your draft to draftspace (with a prefix of "Draft:" before the article title) where you can incubate the article with minimal disruption. When you feel the article meets Wikipedia's general notability guideline and thus is ready for mainspace, please click on the "Submit your draft for review!" button at the top of the page.Onel5969 TT me 13:29, 10 March 2023 (UTC)
A tag has been placed on Category:Military communications units and formations of Lithuania indicating that it is currently empty, and is not a disambiguation category, a category redirect, a featured topics category, under discussion at Categories for discussion, or a project category that by its nature may become empty on occasion. If it remains empty for seven days or more, it may be deleted under section C1 of the criteria for speedy deletion.
If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and clicking the button labelled "Contest this speedy deletion". This will give you the opportunity to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag from the page yourself. Liz Read! Talk! 05:21, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
A tag has been placed on Category:Military units and formations of Lithuania by size indicating that it is currently empty, and is not a disambiguation category, a category redirect, a featured topics category, under discussion at Categories for discussion, or a project category that by its nature may become empty on occasion. If it remains empty for seven days or more, it may be deleted under section C1 of the criteria for speedy deletion.
If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and clicking the button labelled "Contest this speedy deletion". This will give you the opportunity to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag from the page yourself. Liz Read! Talk! 01:42, 24 March 2023 (UTC)
Category:Non-German units of the Waffen-SS has been nominated for deletion
Category:Non-German units of the Waffen-SS has been nominated for deletion. A discussion is taking place to decide whether this proposal complies with the categorization guidelines. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the categories for discussion page. Thank you. Marcelus (talk) 22:51, 25 March 2023 (UTC)
Category:Non-German infantry divisions of the Waffen-SS
This category is not needed. 1st of all there is already: Category:Foreign volunteer units of the Waffen-SS, secondly all Waffen-SS units were German Marcelus (talk) 22:10, 25 March 2023 (UTC)
- The category is needed. It's a clear intersection between various categories. You seem to not understand that there is a major difference between Category:Non-German infantry divisions of the Waffen-SS and Category:Foreign volunteer units of the Waffen-SS. And no, not all Waffen-SS divisions were German. Cukrakalnis (talk) 22:12, 25 March 2023 (UTC)
- P.S. @Marcelus, stop stalking everything that I do. Cukrakalnis (talk) 22:13, 25 March 2023 (UTC)
- I'm not stalking you, you are editing pages I observe. Please explain the major difference to me, and tell me in what way these: Category:Non-German infantry divisions of the Waffen-SS aren't German divisions? Marcelus (talk) 22:24, 25 March 2023 (UTC)
I'm not stalking you
You've literally admitted some time ago that you check all of my edits (won't bother to find the precise edit where you said it, but it 100% certainly exists) and this behaviour by you just proves that this stalking by you has never stopped. And that stalking by you continues, year after year.- Infantry divisions =/= foreign volunteer units. The latter category includes companies, regiments, brigades, while the former does not. You should not confuse different levels of categories. That's the major difference. Certain Waffen-SS divisions were not German because their composition was not German. End of story. Cukrakalnis (talk) 22:28, 25 March 2023 (UTC)
- That's your third attempt on pushing a WP:FRINGE theory; you are literally destroying a clear existing disctinction between voluntary and conscript Waffen-SS foreign units. You fail to see the difference between "foreign" and "non-German"; and no 14th Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS (1st Galician) wasn't Ukrainian division, as you changed in the description, but a German division that consisted of mostly Ukrainian soldiers. That's a big difference, you are ignoring or are unable to see. Marcelus (talk) 22:32, 25 March 2023 (UTC)
- You're wrong.
- It's incorrect to say that there was a
clear existing disctinction
There was never a clear line. Later in the war, many divisions consisted partially of volunteers, partially of conscripts. It is ahistorical to divide some divisions into "purely volunteers" and others into "purely conscripts". Such neat little categories didn't really exist. - They were foreign because they were non-German. In the Waffen-SS, Non-German = foreign. So, your point does not stand up to scrutiny.
- 14th Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS (1st Galician) was a Ukrainian division. It's not fringe to say that. If you search Google Books, Google Scholar, you get many many many WP:RS results stating that by searching "Ukrainian division" "SS". You're the one pushing a WP:Fringe WP:POV by denying the division's Ukrainianness. Especially considering that the division was literally renamed to 1st Ukrainian Division of the Ukrainian National Army in Spring 1945. Cukrakalnis (talk) 22:40, 25 March 2023 (UTC)
- Seriously, read WP:CATEGORISATION, to learn how the categories works once and for all, because it seems you have trouble to grasp the difference. If some unit was both volunteer and conscript then it will be in both categories.
- The Waffen-SS was a German military organization, any unit that was part of it was German, even if it consisted of 100% Ukrainians, it was a German unit. These Ukrainians were German soldiers, some units may have had local national symbols, etc. but this does not change the fact that it was part of the German army. That is why we call these units "foreign", "collaborationist", etc., but we cannot call them "non-German". Marcelus (talk) 22:46, 25 March 2023 (UTC)
- I know WP:CATEGORIZATION well enough, it's you who should go read WP:SUBCAT and WP:CATSPECIFIC.
- No, not every unit of the Waffen-SS was German. You're objectively wrong. There's a WP:RS literally saying:The non-German units of the Waffen-SS, principally the larger formations, had a good, in some cases outstanding, war record. [1]
- By this point, it just seems like you're trying to just sabotage whatever I do and just oppose me doing something just because I am doing it. Get a life. Cukrakalnis (talk) 22:52, 25 March 2023 (UTC)
- I can't speak for other editors, but I have written four FAs on Waffen-SS divisions largely recruited outside the Reich (Yugoslav ones, 13, 21 23 and 24) and am quite familiar with 7 and the two Hungarian ones, they were all German officered and led down to some level (usually regiment or battalion, but sometimes even company), and many of the specialists were also German. I also wrote the FA on Gottlob Berger who was responsible for widening recruitment within the Waffen-SS to include Germanic and non-Germanic people. While "foreign volunteer" wasn't a perfect categorisation, this is certainly no better. All Waffen-SS divisions recruited from outside the Reich had a substantial number of Reich Germans in cadre positions, and some also included a large number of Volksdeutsche as volunteers or conscripts. So, "non-German" isn't a good categorisation either. And the divisions weren't "non-German", the Waffen-SS was an arm of the SS, and the SS was a German organisation. This should have been done via WP:CFD so that the various nuances could have been discussed before changes were made. Instead, you have just created a cat and moved them there and out of the original cat. That is very poor process. Feel free to reverse it and do it properly. Thanks, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:46, 27 March 2023 (UTC)
- What I did was part of trying to help with the Collaboration with the Axis powers. I noticed there was Category clutter in the Category:Collaboration with the Axis Powers, with more than a hundred pages being both the parent category and sub-category (of different layers) (which is obviously not according to WP:CATEGORIZATION). This is only a natural result of that, considering there was a clear intersection between Category:Infantry divisions of the Waffen-SS and the Category:Foreign volunteer units of the Waffen-SS and Category:Foreign conscript units of the Waffen-SS, which prompted me to create that category. Cukrakalnis (talk) 15:01, 27 March 2023 (UTC)
- I can't speak for other editors, but I have written four FAs on Waffen-SS divisions largely recruited outside the Reich (Yugoslav ones, 13, 21 23 and 24) and am quite familiar with 7 and the two Hungarian ones, they were all German officered and led down to some level (usually regiment or battalion, but sometimes even company), and many of the specialists were also German. I also wrote the FA on Gottlob Berger who was responsible for widening recruitment within the Waffen-SS to include Germanic and non-Germanic people. While "foreign volunteer" wasn't a perfect categorisation, this is certainly no better. All Waffen-SS divisions recruited from outside the Reich had a substantial number of Reich Germans in cadre positions, and some also included a large number of Volksdeutsche as volunteers or conscripts. So, "non-German" isn't a good categorisation either. And the divisions weren't "non-German", the Waffen-SS was an arm of the SS, and the SS was a German organisation. This should have been done via WP:CFD so that the various nuances could have been discussed before changes were made. Instead, you have just created a cat and moved them there and out of the original cat. That is very poor process. Feel free to reverse it and do it properly. Thanks, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:46, 27 March 2023 (UTC)
- That's your third attempt on pushing a WP:FRINGE theory; you are literally destroying a clear existing disctinction between voluntary and conscript Waffen-SS foreign units. You fail to see the difference between "foreign" and "non-German"; and no 14th Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS (1st Galician) wasn't Ukrainian division, as you changed in the description, but a German division that consisted of mostly Ukrainian soldiers. That's a big difference, you are ignoring or are unable to see. Marcelus (talk) 22:32, 25 March 2023 (UTC)
CFD Process
Hello, and thank you for your edits to WWII articles. While I'm sure it's unintentional, the recent category changes have not been constructive from a process standpoint. (I'm as of yet neutral on the content of your proposed changes.) When you want to change the name of a category, please propose a rename of the existing category in WP:CFD rather than creating a new category and emptying the old one into it. And, if there is an open CFD nomination and you want a different outcome (say, the proposal is to rename but you want to delete, or vice versa), just iVote for that outcome on the existing proposal; you don't need to create a new nomination.
The overview of the CFD process is here but if you tag me, I'm happy to provide further help! - RevelationDirect (talk) 22:59, 27 March 2023 (UTC)
Regarding your statement about Marcelus' personal attacks
I've read through the diff you posted. It seems as if Marcelus has not been WP:AGF in the past and was being incivil towards you.
However, I'd like to remind you to also stop making personal attacks towards Marcelus. Some of the statements you made to Marcelus such as "By this point, it just seems like you're trying to just sabotage whatever I do and just oppose me doing something just because I am doing it. Get a life. Cukrakalnis (talk) 22:52, 25 March 2023 (UTC)" (See section Category:Non-German infantry divisions of the Waffen-SS under https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Cukrakalnis) and "You are a liar. You do want to smear the leading Lithuanian linguist and you are smearing him. Why do you lie so audaciously? Why do you say you did not do something, and then justify your actions? That's extremely dishonest of you. Cukrakalnis (talk) 22:27, 15 January 2023 (UTC)" (see section "ZZ" under https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Cukrakalnis/Archives/2023/January) could be considered personal attacks as they discuss more of Marcelus as an editor than solely on the content Marcelus posted. -- Shadow of the Starlit Sky 22:01, 29 March 2023 (UTC)
Again, please WP:AGF and refrain from making personal attacks. -- Shadow of the Starlit Sky 13:23, 29 March 2023 (UTC)
- Noted.--Cukrakalnis (talk) 19:00, 29 March 2023 (UTC)
- Understood. Once again, it is completely fine to disagree with Marcelus’ views but please refrain from making comments like those stated above to avoid future conflicts. Address the content and the content only, not the editor. -- Shadow of the Starlit Sky 21:44, 29 March 2023 (UTC)