Template talk:Infobox hereditary title

Explanation of the parameters

When this template used to be called "Infobox peerage title", I thought that there had been a section with an explanation of the parameters, such as at Template:Infobox_royalty#Parameters. Perhaps I'm mistaken and this did not exist at all, or did this disappear in the transition? -- Blairall (talk) 03:07, 2 February 2019 (UTC)

Requested move 6 April 2020

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. (non-admin closure) Steel1943 (talk) 22:39, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

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Template:Infobox hereditary title → Template:Infobox title – No such templates still existing, it seems. As such, perhaps the application of this template would not be restricted to heriditary templates? Also, when their are no heir apperents, would it strictly constitute a hereditary title? Some titles which may be applicable for this infobox may be for life but not hereditary. Etc., etc. Keep it simple? PPEMES (talk) 23:04, 6 April 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose. Hereditary title is not the same as a generic title. It is about a very narrow aspect of inherited titles. This infobox is accurately named. There is no reason to rename it. —Мандичка^YO 😜 20:34, 8 April 2020 (UTC)

I'm afriad there are more than one title which is not hereditary, but which otherwise relates to this topic altogheter. Should they have another infobox? PPEMES (talk) 08:18, 9 April 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose as being a too ambiguous template title. Opening up the scope of this infobox should be discussed first. Or perhaps another one should be started. Merely renaming this "Infobox title" without any specific quantifier could theoretically give someone carte blanche to go through every topic listed on List of titles or in the subcategories on Category:Titles. Using only a few parameters, for example, I might be able to add this to a wide range of specific 'titles' like Lord High Constable of England or International Correspondence Chess Grandmaster. And then there would be redundancy with other infobox templates. As stated on the ongoing TFD with Infobox monarchy, "'infobox monarchy' could ultimately be considered a 'infobox hereditary royal title'". Likewise, Template:Infobox military rank, Template:Infobox official post, and others also describe titles in a sense. Based on how that TFD is currently going, and the existing infoboxes we already have, I doubt there is community desire to have such a single all-encompassing infobox template to be used for every title. Zzyzx11 (talk) 02:42, 10 April 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose. "Title" is a word with too many meanings to use by itself in a template... title... Axem Titanium (talk) 19:24, 10 April 2020 (UTC)
• Comment: Consider Russian_nobility#Personal_nobility. Again, to cover titles not heredity, what about "aristocratic title" or something to that effect? Do you have any other suggestions? Or would we have to create an identical template for the linked subject that doesn't say hereditary? PPEMES (talk) 10:09, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

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The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Capitalization issue

Why does this infobox return "Creation" capitalized? It's not a proper noun.

HandsomeFella (talk) 14:04, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

Limitation vs. Remainder

Why is there no field called 'Limitation'? It is important to note that limitations are not the same as remainders. I'll try to explain the difference here simply.

A hereditary peerage, which for the most part follows the rules of real property, is an incorporeal hereditament in which the grantee has an estate. If an estate is held in fee (fee simple), the tenant has absolute ownership of the estate and may dispose of it at will. The breadth of the estate may be narrower as in a fee tail, in which it may be limited to the heirs male of the grantee's body. This applies to hereditary peerages. A peerage granted to A and the heirs male of his body constitutes one estate with no future interest. (Palmer, 1907: 206) The estate devolves from one person to another in accordance with the limitation of the original grant. If the limitation fails (e.g. failure of issue capable of possessing the estate), the estate reverts to the grantor i.e. the Crown.

The grant may stipulate that if a failure of issue should occur, a new limitation should take effect. For example, if a the Dukedom of X was granted to A and the heirs male of his body, on the failure of such issue, the dukedom will go to A's eldest daughter and the heirs male of her body. This is the legal remainder because the estate on the failure of the first limitation will 'remain away' from the grantor with the effect of any additional limitation.

The limitation and any remainders take effect as successive estates. (ibid.: 80) Any title to peerage by way of remainder is contingent upon the extinction of the prior estate. (ibid. 97) This explains an effect of attainder. If a peerage is forfeit to the Crown by attainder, the present estate being wholly possessed by the present peer is destroyed. However, any person in remainder will still have an interest in the title.

Hope this isn't too complicated and clears up confusions between 'limitation' and 'remainder'!

This information is from Palmer, F., 1907. Peerage Law in England: A Practical Treatise for Lawyers and Laymen. London: Stevens and Sons, Limited. Pp. 74–9 (for limitations); pp. 80–82 (for remainders).

Zanderaspa (talk) 07:07, 21 February 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 21 February 2021

Please insert a field called 'limitation'. From what I can see thus far, entries for the field 'Remainder to' seem to contain entries more appropriate and more accurately for a field called 'Limitation'. These are not coterminous terms. I've made an entry elucidating this difference on the talk page. Zanderaspa (talk) 07:25, 21 February 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Edit requests are not for asking for vague additions. If you must, you may experiment on your sandbox and once you have a version with all the changes which you want, post a link to it. Additionally, such a change as this would probably require a WP:RS to support it (which I fail to see in the longer paragraph above) RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 15:02, 21 February 2021 (UTC)

Change Request: Incorrect Use of 'Remainder to' Field

CHANGE REQUESTED: There should be a field called 'Limitation' separate from and distinct to the field 'Remainder to'.

Each letters patent of peerage grants to the grantee an estate in a peerage. This estate can be limited in a certain way by words of limitation, e.g., to X and the heirs male of X's body. Words of limitation denote the extent of the estate given and how it transfers. For hereditary peerages, this is usually to the bodily heirs of the grantee.

A grant otherwise than to the heirs male of the grantee's body—e.g., to X and the heirs male of his body by a particular wife—is a special limitation to the extent that it departs from the usual limitation to the heirs male of the body.

It is possible for a hereditary peerage to have several limitations. Consider the Earldom of Rosslyn created for Alexander Wedderburn in April 1801 (see The Gazette). It has two limitations: 1) to the heirs male of the body of Alexander's body; and 2) heirs male of Janet Erskine's (Alexander's sister) body. While they are both limitations in the peerage granted, limitation (2) takes effect by way of remainder only on the failure of the first estate under limitation (1). In other words, successive limitations take effect by way of remainder.

In all future use of this infobox template, 'heirs male of the body' and any other special limitation in the first instance should be entered into a 'Limitation' field; successive limitations should be entered into the 'Remainder to' field.

The above information comes form Palmer, F., 1907. Peerage Law in England. London: Stevens and Sons, Ch. 6.

Ccenthusiast (talk) 13:25, 4 June 2022 (UTC)