Template talk:Infobox French subdivision

Requested move 11 November 2020

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: no consensus to move. The main concerns of editors opposing was that the proposed title was grammatically awkward. One editor cited that this template is only used for French subdivisions, rather than all French places; this point wasn't discussed further in the discussion but that may need to be looked into and editors may wish to correct the title if that's true. Further, I suggest a larger, batched RM if a future nomination is to occur. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 19:18, 2 February 2021 (UTC)

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Template:Infobox French place → Template:Infobox France place – use noun to resolve ambiguity since "French place" could refer to any place where French people are or French is spoken, in fact Google first result for French place in Canada is Quebec. Others in Category:France templates use "France" too if refering to the country, e.g. Category:France stub templates TerraCyprus (talk) 00:45, 11 November 2020 (UTC) —Relisting. qedk (t 愛 c) 09:32, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

This is a contested technical request (permalink). – Ammarpad (talk) 04:03, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

• This very same move was reverted by RexxS in September. As I suggested elsewhere, it may make sense to bundle several moves of this type into a single RM. Or don't bundle, but an RM is unavoidable when there has been disagreement. – Uanfala (talk) 02:24, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

  @Uanfala: but an RM is unavoidable when there has been disagreement the move has as edit summary rv undiscussed move [1] RexxS didn't address the reasons given in the move he reversed, nor even to mention any content reason. That was in contradiction to Help:Reverting#Before_reverting In the edit summary or on the talk page, succinctly explain why the change you are reverting was a bad idea or why reverting it is a better idea. TerraCyprus (talk) 04:51, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

  There was more than one undiscussed move reverted by me. The others were Template:Infobox German district, which Ammarpad TerraCyprus had moved to "Germany district", and Template:Infobox Greek Dimos which had been moved to "Greece place". I made it very clear when contesting these undiscussed moves that phrases like "France place", "Germany place" and "Greece place" are ungrammatical. So Ammarpad TerraCyprus is not truthful when he asserts that I didn't give any reason. I don't know what Ammarpad TerraCyprus's first language is, but it obviously isn't English, as no native English speaker would consider using a phrase like "France place". It may well be true that other places outside of France may be considered French (although I've seen no examples provided), but you don't solve those issues by trying to create non-English phrases. The idiom in English is "<Country demonym> place", never "<Country name> place". The demonym is always an adjective and the name is always a noun and we should not be breaching proper English usage in an artificial construction to try to address a non-existent problem. If a template is misused, then deal with the misuse, and give advice in the template documentation. I strongly oppose this abuse of the language. --RexxS (talk) 19:32, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

  Since I am pinged and some words are incorrectly being attributed to me, @RexxS: I am not the one who moved that page and I believe I didn't say these words. I have no relation with these discussions or the pages involved. (I am only tangentially here because of procedural conversion of RM technical request to move discussion after it was contested). I think you've mistaken my username for someone else here. It would be good to correct that, please. – Ammarpad (talk) 20:14, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

  @Ammarpad: My sincere apologies. I did indeed confuse you with original poster, TerraCyprus, whose assertions I refute. I misread your note as part of the opening comment. I've now struck your name and inserted the correct name in my prior post. I hope that my correction alleviates your justifiable concern. Cheers --RexxS (talk) 20:28, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

  @RexxS: TerraCyprus is not truthful when he asserts that I didn't give any reason fix my statement by inserting "which" and some minor other fixes: ... the move has as edit summary created by RexxS "rv undiscussed move" [2] which didn't address the reasons given in the move he reversed, nor did it even mention any name-related reason. That was in contradiction to Help:Reverting#Before_reverting In the edit summary or on the talk page, succinctly explain why the change you are reverting was a bad idea or why reverting it is a better idea. TerraCyprus (talk) 03:47, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

  @TerraCyprus: Don't equivocate. You know full well that I gave the reason when I contested your proposed moves at Wikipedia:Requested moves. Anybody can read that diff and see I gave the reasons "Germany place" is ungrammatical. and "Greece place" is ungrammatical. The actual moves you made were not uncontroversial and should have been discussed; hence my edit summaries rv undiscussed move. It is a bad idea to make controversial moves without prior discussion, and I followed the guidance at Help:Reverting#Before_reverting precisely by succinctly explaining why your moves were a bad idea. If you don't understand why making undiscussed controversial moves is a bad idea, you shouldn't be moving pages at all. --RexxS (talk) 14:49, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

  @RexxS: this abuse of the language can you explain that in more detail and are you aware of the verifiable fact, link to evidence provided in the proposal, that thousands of templates are named using a proper noun for the country followed by other nouns? TerraCyprus (talk) 03:53, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

  @TerraCyprus: There's no more detail to explain. In English, "France place" is simply not a usable phrase for any native speaker. The expression is "French place" or "place in France". This isn't German and we don't simply construct compound nouns by jamming the name of a country next to another noun. There is a construction in English called a noun adjunct where a noun is used to qualify another noun – and other templates may use it – but you need to read the section Noun adjunct #Use when an adjectivally inflected alternative is available which explains that the preference between a noun and its corresponding adjective as a qualifier is idiomatic. In the case of countries, the preference is 100% use of the demonym. No native English speaker would say "I visited a France place". --RexxS (talk) 14:12, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

  As for your claim that there are "thousands of templates ... named using a proper noun for the country followed by other noun". That is patent nonsense. The only template I could find in those categories that fits your scheme is Template:France top-level domains and that needs to be moved to Template:French top-level domains. However, that category tree contains plenty of examples of "Template:French ..." and "Template: ... in France". Just take a look at Category:France military templates for a page-full of examples. --RexxS (talk) 14:35, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

• I agree that this should ideally be a multi-move including at least Template:Infobox French commune (and probably also similar ones from Wikipedia:List of infoboxes/Place#Country-specific) for WP:CONSISTENT. Other than that, support. BegbertBiggs (talk) 13:01, 11 November 2020 (UTC)
• I think something like "Infobox France place" sounds a bit jarring, and the pattern for most such templates, at least before TerraCyprus moved many of them in the course of the last two months, was "infobox French place". Still, it may be desirable to have the country name as a noun, as it's less ambiguous (even if that ambiguity is really only theoretical). However, wouldn't it sound a bit more natural if the format was "infobox place France" or something of this sort? Or even better, substitute "place" with either "settlement" (the template is a wrapper for {{infobox settlement}}) or "administrative division"? The word "place" looks to me like a greater source of ambiguity here than the word "French". – Uanfala (talk) 15:31, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

  @Uanfala: having the country name after the English short type name will mean that the infoboxes belonging to one country are not sorted together. The name "place" has been choosen as a common name for all multi-type wrappers, several or most of these created in the last months/years by Markussep using different English type words, "settlement", "subdivision". The word "settlement" is plain wrong for most of the entities. TerraCyprus (talk) 03:38, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

  @TerraCyprus: we don't name our infoboxes just to fit in with how they would be sorted on a category page. This obsession with categories misses the point that categorisation allows a sort key to be used: for example Template:French Navy is categorised as Navy, which sorts it under 'N' in Category:France military templates. A template called Template:Place in France can be categorised as [[Category:French subdivision infobox templates|France]] if you were desperate to see it sorted as "France" in the category tree. That's a non-issue anyway because diffusion ensures that all of the French templates are already collected together by category page naming and don't need to sort together as you think. Anyone only needs to look at Category:French subdivision infobox templates to see how it works out. --RexxS (talk) 15:11, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

  @RexxS: my text didn't contain the word "category". And no, I am not desperate. Have a nice day. TerraCyprus (talk) 13:21, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

  @TerraCyprus: please don't be obtuse. You wrote: the infoboxes belonging to one country are not sorted together: where are infoboxes belonging to one country sorted together? Infobox sorting is in categories. So what were you thinking of when you complained about the sorting? Where would templates like "Infobox place in France" and "Infobox French commune" get sorted together? --RexxS (talk) 17:33, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

• Comment: this wrapper is specifically for administrative subdivisions (actually I created it as "Template:Infobox French subdivision"), most articles about settlements in France use {{Infobox French commune}}. So maybe "Infobox subdivision of France" would be a better name. Markussep ^Talk 19:40, 11 November 2020 (UTC)
• Support even without a multimove, this should be renamed. And if possible, the "French" locations should be broken with a deprecation notice -- 67.70.26.89 (talk) 21:56, 9 December 2020 (UTC)
• Strong support nothing to do with the French Community of Belgium, or places in Switzerland, or Louisiana -- 70.31.205.108 (talk) 04:52, 20 January 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose per above – the proposed title is awkward, and there's no plausible confusion that needs clearing. Also noting the apparent vote stacking by the two IPs geolocating to the same area. – Uanfala (talk) 17:05, 24 January 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose, I believe the phrase "French place" will readily be understood to refer to a place in France. BD2412 T 17:04, 2 February 2021 (UTC)

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The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.