Talk:Passeier Valley

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

• Support. According to Wikipedia:Naming conventions (geographic names)#Multiple local names - A clearly favoured English name for this valley does not exist, so we should take the name used by the local majority. Mai-Sachme 19:26, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

• Oppose. In fact, google gives 13,800 hits for "val passiria" -wikipedia and 902 for passeiertal -wikipedia, but moreover English maps, encyclopedias, etc. prefer val passiria and the naming conventions say to use the current local names (so the Italian names for places in Italy, the French name for places in France and so on) when there isn't a clear preference for a name in English. See also Danzig vs Gdansk.--Supparluca 06:06, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

• moreover English maps, encyclopedias, etc. prefer val passiria - Please prove this assertion!
• 13,800 hits for "val passiria" -wikipedia and 902 for passeiertal -wikipedia I can't find, where you got your google-hits - please give me the links! But when i search for pages from the UK, i have 144 hits for Val Passiria and 229 for Passeiertal. Imho this result proves that there is no clear preference for one of the two names.
• the naming conventions say to use the current local names (so the Italian names for places in Italy, the French name for places in France and so on) I'm sorry, but do you take me for a fool? You know the discussions regarding South Tyrol and the consensus was that we use the names of the local and not of the national majority ([1]) - that's why we moved Val Pusteria to Pustertal, Val Venosta to Vinschgau and Rienza to Rienz, aside from the rest of the Communes of South Tyrol. Mai-Sachme 10:52, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

[2] and [3] (www.google.com -> language tools -> only English -> "val passiria" -wikipedia -> etc.). People in the Passiria valley are Italian citizens.--Supparluca 12:31, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

People in the Pustertal or the Vinschgau are Italian citizens, too, but that's not the point. I have to repeat: Supparluca, you know the discussions about article names regarding South Tyrol, and I can't understand why you act the fool as if you've never heart anything about the consensus to use the names of the local majority. Little valleys in the Alps have obviously no commonly used English names and in this case the Naming conventions are non-ambiguous. Furthermore we have enough precedents, almost every geographical name in South Tyrol coincides with the denomination used by the local majority and Val Passiria is one of the few relicts, which don't accord to the NC. Mai-Sachme 15:14, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Maybe rather than arguing and namecalling on here, we should open up a new discussion on this BZ naming convention? Obviously there are more heads involved now. There has to be a better solution than naming all these places in Italy in German, or the same.. everything in Italian. It just continuously gives the impression that English Wikipedia is being used as a national battleground to try and cement some cultural/national point of view. Do you all really want to do this?? cheerio, Icsunonove 01:46, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Godwin's Law applied to South Tyrol...just replace Nazi or Hitler by Nationalist. 212.171.132.185 12:07, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

• Agree with nom. There appears no clear preference in English speaking countries for either of the names, so the name given it by the local majority should be the article name. —AldeBaer 17:07, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
  • I would support a move to Passeier Valley as well. —AldeBaer 17:04, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
• Support because the local majority in the valley is German-speaking and in accordance to consensus regarding other place names in BZ.  Andreas  ^(T) 17:52, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
• Oppose until there is evidence below which suggests that these are at least equal. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:51, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Support as amended. If there is countervailing evidence, tell me. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:35, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
• Support It should be the majority speak in that case. Gryffindor 22:25, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
• Oppose I actually prefer to locate pages with what is used in English references, primarily Britannica (instead of these protracted searches). The consensus that was found to use local language majority, in its original intent, was meant for smaller villages/places that are too small to be referenced in English encyclopedias and atlases. Personally when in doubt, I'd prefer to use the name in the national language or in the case of this particular Italian province: double-names. Icsunonove 20:34, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Given what is in Brittanica, I would support: Passiria Valley, or Passiria-Passeier Valley. Icsunonove 20:40, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
    • One mention in Britannica seems to me less significant than the other evidence; WP:NCGN requests agreement among the encyclopedias. This seems to fall under "no clear English usage". Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:19, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
      • Howdy Sep, I havn't had the chance to look through the English encyclopedias though. If someone has the time to go through Brittanica, Columbia, etc. and see what is used most often, that would be fantastic. Then, obviously, we should go with that; be it Passiria Valley or Passeier Valley, whatever. I still wouldn't mind using Passiria-Passeier Valley. Anyway, like I've said above, the consensus found at one point by some users was really meant to deal with little places that were obscure and not identifiable in Brittanica, etc. For the rest, we should be using what is in the major English encyclopedias -- otherwise, we are playing a strange game on here. Icsunonove 20:01, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
        • I included the negatives; I thought I already had, but I guess that was at Talk:Wilhelmstraße. Do remember that this is, and must be, limited to the German-speaking areas of the Province, where there are two official names. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:44, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Data

I set up, below, the six suggested tests of WP:NCGN. have fun:

1. Encyclopedias:
   • Britannica: one hit, for Passiria.
   • Columbia -None
   • Encarta - None
2. Scholarly google results (not raw google, please; and remember to look for false positives).
   • Google Scholar Passiertal: 3; two citing both names, one not. Excluding the texts actually in German, K. Fischer's Das Passiertal and the papers that cite it and other papers in German. Val Passiria:7, excluding the three where it's part of a street address. How is Signior Pedrini's garlic-squeezer, does anybody know? Passiria with or without Val scores 30, mostly adding "Passiria fault". Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:53, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
     • • Passeier valley - 31 hits [4] 212.171.128.42 13:25, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
         • "passeier valley" - 7 hits (less than "passiria").--Supparluca 20:24, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
           • 7 hits for the search key "Passeier valley -bozen -und." 212.171.132.103 11:04, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
   • Google Books Passiertal: 6, excluding 2 nineteenth century references, one in French and das Grosse Brockhaus. Val Passiria: 8, again excluding two books in French; Passiria scores 18, suggesting that Passiria valley is also quite common. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:47, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
     • • Passeier valley - 41 hits [5] 212.171.128.42 13:25, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
         • "passeier valley" - 18 hits (like "passiria").--Supparluca 20:24, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
           • 18 hits for the search key "Passeier valley -bozen -und." 212.171.132.103 11:04, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
3. Other standard English sources.
   • LC country study for Italy - None
   • Cambridge History
   • Oxford Dictionary
4. Media usage
   • BBC – No hits for google search passiria OR passertal site:bbc.co.uk.
   • Guardian – No hits for google search passiria OR passertal site:guardian.co.uk.
   • Washington Post – No hits for google search passiria OR passertal site:washingtonpost.com.
   • New York Times – No hits for google search passiria OR passertal site:nytimes.com.
5. Consensus of Wikipedia editors (unlikely)
6. Use of one name as a translation of the other.
7. It is also possible to use raw google searches, and you have to include "-wikipedia": val passiria - 12,200; passeiertal - 872. But if the English name is not clear, there are fortunately the naming conventions: use the current local name, and currently the valley is in Italy.--Supparluca 20:24, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Regards. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:23, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Unfortunately, Wikipedia is not a democracy, but Wikipedia is a democracy as far as the province of Bolzano is concerned.--Supparluca 10:11, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but looking at the 6 suggested tests I can't find a clear preference. Where the above tests, therefore, give no indication of a widely used English name, those articles are placed according to the language of the linguistic majority. If these conditions apply elsewhere, this solution may be worth considering. (from the Naming Conventions). Mai-Sachme 11:16, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

@Septentrionalis: You forgot the option Passeier valley [6] and [7]. It seems that Passeier valley is the most common name. Maybe you will reconsider your decision to vote Oppose. 212.171.128.42 13:14, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Interesting; if Passeier Valley were the proposed move target, I would support. Please amend. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:10, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Hmm, I think everybody who voted for Passeiertal, would also be content with Passeier valley, because finally we're just discussing if we should take Passiria or Passeier. What if I exchanged Passeiertal with Passeier valley in the request? Or is it really necesssary to start up a new discussion? Mai-Sachme 16:43, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

I suppose you could go ahead and change it, but make sure to notify everyone who has already voted commented. —AldeBaer 16:57, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Done Mai-Sachme 17:12, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

This article has been renamed from Val Passiria to Passeier Valley as the result of a move request. This seems to be the most widely acceptable name, having agreed that there is no very widely used English name, and that the locally-used alternative should be given preference. --Stemonitis 17:36, 26 August 2007 (UTC)