Talk:Veganism

Frequently asked questions

To view an answer, click the [show] link to the right of the question.

Q1: Why does the article distinguish between dietary and ethical vegans? Aren't ethical vegans the only true vegans?

The article makes the distinction because reliable sources make it. See Talk:Veganism/Sources for the dietary veganism distinction for a selection of sources. For example:

Brenda Davis, Vesanto Melina (2013):
"There are degrees of veganism. A pure vegetarian or dietary vegan is someone who consumes a vegan diet but doesn't lead a vegan lifestyle. Pure vegetarians may use animal products, support the use of animals in research, wear leather clothing, or have no objection to the exploitation of animals for entertainment. They are mostly motivated by personal health concerns rather than by ethical objections. Some may adopt a more vegan lifestyle as they are exposed to vegan philosophy."^[1]
A. Breeze Harper (2011):
"Practitioners of veganism abstain from animal consumption (dietary and non-dietary). However, the culture of veganism iself is not a monolith and is composed of many different subcultures and philosophies throughout the world, ranging from punk strict vegans for animals rights, to people who are dietary vegans for personal health reasons, to people who practice veganism for religious and spiritual reasons."^[2]
Associated Press (2011):
"Ethical vegans have a moral aversion to harming animals for human consumption ... though the term often is used to describe people who follow the diet, not the larger philosophy"^[3]
Gary Francione (2010):
"Although veganism may represent a matter of diet or lifestyle for some, ethical veganism is a profound moral and political commitment ..."^[4]
Robert Garner (2010):
"I have been a vegetarian all my adult life, and I am currently a dietary vegan, and I do not wear leather."^[5]
Layli Phillips (2010):
"While some vegans, for instance members of the Straight Edge community, demand unswerving commitment to vegan ideals and practices, many people practice some form of partial veganism. For instance, many vegans refrain from eating meat, dairy, and eggs, yet eat honey or wear leather. Other vegans shop vegan and eat vegan at home, but look the other way at a vegetarian restaurant for dishes that use a small amount of butter, cream, or cheese. ... You get the idea: for many people, veganism is a principle, not a law."^[6]
International Vegetarian Union (2000):
"Dietary Vegan: follows a vegan diet, but doesn't necessarily try and exclude non-food uses of animals."^[7]

References

^ Brenda Davis, Vesanto Melina, Becoming Vegan: Express Edition, Summertown: Book Publishing Company, 2013, 3.
^ A. Harper Breeze, "Going Beyond the Normative White 'Post-racial' Vegan Epistemology", in Psyche Williams Forson and Carole Counihan (eds.), Taking Food Public: Redefining Foodways in a Changing World, New York: Routledge, 2011, 158.
^ "Vegan Diets Become More Popular, More Mainstream". CBS News. Associated Press. 5 January 2011. Archived from the original on 1 March 2018. Retrieved 1 March 2018. {{cite web}}: Unknown parameter |dead-url= ignored (|url-status= suggested) (help)
^ Gary L. Francione, "The Abolition of Animal Exploitation" in Gary L. Francione and Robert Garner, The Animal Rights Debate: Abolition Or Regulation?, Columbia University Press, 2010, 62.
^ "A Discussion between Francione and Gardner", in Francione and Garner 2010, 257.
^ Layli Phillips, "Veganism and Ecowomanism", in A. Breeze Harper (ed.), Sistah Vegan: Black Female Vegans Speak on Food, Identity, Health, and Society, Brooklyn: Lantern Books, 2010, 11.
^ "Definitions", International Vegetarian Union, archived 29 September 2000.

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This article is written in British English with Oxford spelling (colour, realize, organization, analyse; note that -ize is used instead of -ise) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus.

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July 18, 2007	Good article nominee	Listed
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Mona Chalabi (9 January 2014). "Meat atlas shows Latin America has become a soybean empire". The Guardian.

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Sources for ethical/dietary distinction

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Critiques of Veganism edit

Latest comment: 1 month ago6 comments5 people in discussion

In the interests of fairness, shouldn't there be a section listing critiques and criticisms of the vegan diet from a health point of view at the very least? The only dissenting voice given in the article is from "Discrimination against vegans" and "Vegaphobia" which very strongly implies that only irrational and spiteful people would have any problem with this lifestyle. It just seems strange that nearly every other movement listed on this site follows a very standard formula of its history, its beliefs, and nearly always ends with a list of its criticisms written from a neutral point of view. Why should veganism be any different? 2603:3018:CD9:100:FC7B:A7D0:E465:4794 (talk) 03:19, 24 November 2023 (UTC)PhoenixReply

Agree with this - personally I have no issue with vegans or veganism in general but it is odd that this article is basically uncritical. Foonblace (talk) 08:50, 20 December 2023 (UTC)Reply

From the lede: "Vitamin B12 supplementation is important because its deficiency can cause blood disorders and potentially irreversible neurological damage". In general, WP:CRITS are to be avoided. Bon courage (talk) 09:06, 20 December 2023 (UTC)Reply

Under the subheading “Philosophy, religion, or politics” WP:CRITS says:

“For topics about a particular point of view – such as philosophies (Idealism, Naturalism, Existentialism), political outlooks (Capitalism, Marxism), or religion (Islam, Christianity, Atheism) – it will usually be appropriate to have a ‘Criticism’ section or ‘Criticism of ...’ subarticle. Integrating criticism into the main article can cause confusion because readers may misconstrue the critical material as representative of the philosophy's outlook, the political stance, or the religion's tenets.”

Since veganism is both a dietary choice and a philosophy, maybe this applies here. Marippy (talk) 01:01, 6 April 2024 (UTC)Reply

I heard what you are saying, but in this case, the criticism should be incorporated into the article. I don't trust people to list criticisms from a neutral point of view... I think having a criticisms section would invite trolls to vandalize the article, which is something we do NOT want. Historyday01 (talk) 02:01, 6 April 2024 (UTC)Reply

I agree. Having a criticism section would invite the trolls and be very bad. Historyday01 (talk) 02:00, 6 April 2024 (UTC)Reply

Merge edit

Latest comment: 4 months ago5 comments5 people in discussion

Should we merge this with Abolitionism (animal rights)? Countryboy603 (talk) 00:06, 23 December 2023 (UTC)Reply

Maybe link it but not completely merge 173.93.59.46 (talk) 05:06, 21 January 2024 (UTC)Reply

No.--C.J. Griffin (talk) 05:15, 21 January 2024 (UTC)Reply

No. Abolitionism and veganism are interrelated yet distinct philosophies. They complement each other. Rasnaboy (talk) 13:37, 21 January 2024 (UTC)Reply

This merge proposal is also discussed at Talk:Abolitionism_(animal_rights)#Merge. I oppose this merge. There are a number of RS sources that have significant coverage of Abolitionism as a concept, which alone is justification for a separate article.Dialectric (talk) 13:24, 21 January 2024 (UTC)Reply

Prevalence by country: Germany, incorrect statement edit

Latest comment: 3 months ago2 comments2 people in discussion

...better educated (people who ended their formal education with Hauptschule graduation)...

In Germany, Hauptschule is not considered better educated. It's the lowest of the 3 schools kids attend starting 5th grade. 107.4.90.214 (talk) 23:57, 10 February 2024 (UTC)Reply

I deleted the part that goes into detail about education and East/West Germany. The study is too small to draw any of these conclusions. CarlFromVienna (talk) 09:48, 12 February 2024 (UTC)Reply

"particularly in diet" edit

Latest comment: 2 days ago2 comments2 people in discussion

I know this has been discussed a hundred times but... this isn't a dictionary, this is an encyclopedia. It's ok for a dictionary to reflect how people misuse words, but an encyclopedia should reflect what the word actually means. As I dig deeper all I can see is that The Vegan Society never defined veganism as a diet. They always defined it as a philosophy. Countryboy603 (talk) 17:03, 27 May 2024 (UTC)Reply

It wasn't originally defined as a philosophy, vegan back then just meant "non-dairy vegetarian". Watson's first definition of veganism in 1946 was very simple, "the practice of living on fruits, nuts, vegetables, grains, and other wholesome non-animal products". Veganism as a philosophy was first defined by Leslie Cross in 1951. It's both a diet and a philosophy. Over time it was turned into a philosophy. Most vegans today consider it a philosophy. Nothing wrong with that they can call it what they want, but we can't deny diet has been an important factor. Psychologist Guy (talk) 19:18, 27 May 2024 (UTC)Reply

Add topic

[1] Brenda Davis, Vesanto Melina, Becoming Vegan: Express Edition, Summertown: Book Publishing Company, 2013, 3.

[2] A. Harper Breeze, "Going Beyond the Normative White 'Post-racial' Vegan Epistemology", in Psyche Williams Forson and Carole Counihan (eds.), Taking Food Public: Redefining Foodways in a Changing World, New York: Routledge, 2011, 158.

[3] "Vegan Diets Become More Popular, More Mainstream". CBS News. Associated Press. 5 January 2011. Archived from the original on 1 March 2018. Retrieved 1 March 2018. {{cite web}}: Unknown parameter |dead-url= ignored (|url-status= suggested) (help)

[4] Gary L. Francione, "The Abolition of Animal Exploitation" in Gary L. Francione and Robert Garner, The Animal Rights Debate: Abolition Or Regulation?, Columbia University Press, 2010, 62.

[5] "A Discussion between Francione and Gardner", in Francione and Garner 2010, 257.

[6] Layli Phillips, "Veganism and Ecowomanism", in A. Breeze Harper (ed.), Sistah Vegan: Black Female Vegans Speak on Food, Identity, Health, and Society, Brooklyn: Lantern Books, 2010, 11.

[7] "Definitions", International Vegetarian Union, archived 29 September 2000.

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