Talk:Loughinisland massacre

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Proposed move

Latest comment: 14 years ago2 comments1 person in discussion

Since this article is solely about the 1994 shootings, I propose it be renamed to reflect that. The obvious choices are "Loughinisland killings" or "Loughinisland massacre". The title should be whichever is the most commonly used.
Thoughts? ~Asarlaí 03:21, 10 February 2010 (UTC)Reply

It's been almost ten days without a reply, so I've decided to go ahead and move the article. A Google search throws up the following:

1,070 results for "Loughinisland massacre" + 8 results in Google Books
259 results for "Loughinisland murders" + 2 results in Google Books
254 results for "Loughinisland shootings" + 6 results in Google Books
109 results for "Loughinisland killings" + 6 results in Google Books

As "Loughinisland massacre" is by far the most popular name for this incident, that shall be the name of the article.
~Asarlaí 03:20, 19 February 2010 (UTC)Reply

Facts not fiction

Latest comment: 14 years ago10 comments3 people in discussion

So first of all we had the fictional claim that "members of the security forces took part in the killings", now there is the equally fictional, in the absence of sources that actually say it, claim that "members of the security forces knew the massacre was being planned". "members of the security forces" is a short, unambiguous phrase. It consists of five words, all in English, some of them only one syllable long. So it really is difficult to understand why such a simple, unambiguous phrase is persistently being misused to make claims which are not true? Perhaps someone could explain? 2 lines of K₃₀₃ 13:44, 13 September 2010 (UTC)Reply

First of all, you've misquoted what was actually written in the lead section before your revert. What it said was this:

The Police Ombudsman for Northern Ireland is still, as of late 2010, investigating claims that members of the Royal Ulster Constabulary (RUC) knew the massacre was being planned and failed to carry out a proper investigation.^[1]

And the reference (with the title "RUC informers knew about Loughinisland shootings") says:

A report into the police's handling of one of the last major atrocities of the Troubles will reveal that four security force agents were aware that the Ulster Volunteer Force was planning the Loughinisland massacre ... Security sources said this weekend that the investigation will highlight the role of informers inside the UVF who ordered or helped organise the attack on the Heights bar in June 1994.

~Asarlaí 16:54, 13 September 2010 (UTC)Reply

"Security force agents," as you put it, are not members of the RUC. You cannot simply conflate the two without a source, and the source quoted does not say so. ---RepublicanJacobite_{The'FortyFive'} 20:03, 13 September 2010 (UTC)Reply

I knew it was only a matter of hours before one of you came along. The title of that news article source is "RUC informers knew about Loughinisland shootings". I even added the full reference so everyone could see it. The article calls them "RUC informers" in the title but "security force agents" or just "informers" in the main body. The two An Phoblacht articles (^[2] and ^[3]) also notes that the security force agents/informers were working for the RUC. ~Asarlaí 20:41, 13 September 2010 (UTC)Reply

An "RUC informer" is not the same as a member of the RUC. ---RepublicanJacobite_{The'FortyFive'} 21:03, 13 September 2010 (UTC)Reply

If you've a problem with using "RUC members" for "RUC Special Branch agents" then the sentence can be changed to "...claims that Royal Ulster Constabulary (RUC) agents knew the massacre was being planned and that the RUC failed to carry out a proper investigation". ~Asarlaí 22:33, 13 September 2010 (UTC)Reply

Any objections? ~Asarlaí 23:13, 16 September 2010 (UTC)Reply

Yes, I object to the use of this ambiguous word "agent," as there is no evidence that they were "agents," merely informers. ---RepublicanJacobite_{The'FortyFive'} 12:47, 17 September 2010 (UTC)Reply

Since the word "agent" is itself ambiguous, and has a wholly different meaning in American English I strongly object to its use. It would seem to be the intention of Asarlaí to add false or misleading information to many articles, based on my experience. Contrary to the assertion above I did not misquote anyone, I merely quoted the salient part namely "members of the security forces". Since the people concerned were emphaticaly not "members of the security forces" and no reliable sources are claiming otherwise, that is why it is the salient part. "I knew it was only a matter of hours before one of you came along" - you should count yourself lucky your vandalism was not reverted sooner, recent changes patrollers seem to be slipping up these days. 2 lines of K₃₀₃ 13:29, 17 September 2010 (UTC)Reply

They are called "RUC agents" in the sources, but if that's too ambiguous for you then it'll have to be "RUC informers". ~Asarlaí 16:26, 17 September 2010 (UTC)Reply

References

^ "RUC informers 'knew about Loughinisland shootings'". The Observer. 13 September 2009.
^ "Loughinisland massacre families at Westminster". An Phoblacht. 9 November 2006.
^ "Collusion and cover-up in Loughinisland massacre". An Phoblacht. 17 September 2009.

Victims list

Latest comment: 12 years ago4 comments4 people in discussion

I note the naming of the victims here- is that appropriate and within normal Wikipedia guidelines re "memorials"? But rather than removing the victims list here, I would first like to ask if anyone can provide a justification for retaining it?--Oneill1921 (talk) 15:18, 11 September 2011 (UTC)Oneill1921Reply

No it isn't per WP:NOTMEMORIAL Mo ainm~Talk 11:15, 17 November 2011 (UTC)Reply

WP:NOTMEMORIAL seems to be principally concerned that articles not be created to memorialize persons known to editors. This doesn't include listing those killed in an notable event, such as this particular action by the UVF. And I do seem to recall quite a bit of coverage at the time regarding the advanced age of one of those killed. No, this information is useful and longstanding, and should not be removed. Ivor Stoughton (talk) 17:26, 17 November 2011 (UTC)Reply

I tend to agree. A little biographical detail gives context. Its a longish list of names for an article, but not overly so. RashersTierney (talk) 20:10, 17 November 2011 (UTC)Reply

Which UVF Brigade was responsible?

Latest comment: 2 years ago3 comments2 people in discussion

The article does not say, but which UVF brigade carried out the killings? I imagine it was the Mid-Ulster Brigade.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 18:31, 4 October 2011 (UTC)Reply

It appears that the Belfast Brigade may have carried it out.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 16:34, 19 June 2012 (UTC)Reply

A South Down UVF unit allegedly. There is a recent (2017) investigative film on this attack. TheSquareMile (talk) 22:54, 22 August 2022 (UTC)Reply

PIRA retaliation

Latest comment: 11 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

The section "Provisional IRA retaliation" purported to establish a link between the murders at Loughinisland with a series of IRA killings giving p.231 of Peter Taylor's Loyalists as a reference. No such link is advanced by Taylor, or even raised in fact. The killing of Bratty is mentioned with reference to the UFF attack on the Sean Graham betting shop (Bratty had been briefly charged with this). The IRA killings were all of UDA members, while Loughinisland was carried out by the UVF. I have read virtually every published work on or about the UVF and many on the IRA and I cannot recall ever seeing the two linked. Any correlation would seem to be the conjecture of the editor. Shipyard Special (talk) 16:51, 18 March 2013 (UTC)Reply

External links modified

Latest comment: 7 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

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Latest comment: 6 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

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Add topic

[Observer-1] "RUC informers 'knew about Loughinisland shootings'". The Observer. 13 September 2009.

[anphoblacht16682-2] "Loughinisland massacre families at Westminster". An Phoblacht. 9 November 2006.

[anphoblacht38878-3] "Collusion and cover-up in Loughinisland massacre". An Phoblacht. 17 September 2009.

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[2]

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