Talk:The Saint (music venue)

Speedy Deletion

I suspect this speedy deletion may be vandalism. The speedy deletion notice was placed overnight, and it was deleted as I tried to edit it it this morning. As I mention in my editing note, this article is heavy referenced with credible sources, such as the New York Times. It is hard to find negative statements about this venue because it plays an important role in the music world. More shortly. I will remove anything without a citation right next to it.Smm201`0 (talk) 12:05, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

Could an administrator please restore the history for this page? FYI, the editor who placed the initial notice has a connection to the local music scene. Smm201`0 (talk) 12:33, 1 April 2011 (UTC).

The perceived connection seems to be that I've have worked with several bands in the past. Of these bands, only one (The Bouncing Souls) has any substantial connection to Asbury Park's "local music scene" and the connection happens to be appearing briefly in one of their music videos. Otherwise, I have no direct connection to any local music scene in Asbury Park whatsoever. If I did, I would think that would be reason for me to have bias NOT to nominate the article for deletion. As I've stated and told the main author directly, it's not a personal issue. My knowledge of music and bands is simply what eventually led me to the article. I based my decision to nominate entirely on what I felt read like the club's website and apparently an administrator agreed. The article has been deleted once already and I do still find it to be promotional in tone but if administrators have no issues with the article since it has been reintroduced and edited, I'm fine with that. My intention from the beginning has simply been to call it as I see it and have no ill will whatsoever toward the author, the club or their local music scene. NJZombie (talk) 15:56, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

This may not be vandalism, but it was awfully quick! Please give me a chance to remove the undocumented content that you think is promotional. Thanks. Smm201`0 (talk) 13:04, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

I just checked, and the speedy deletion notice was placed at 8:03 on 4/1/2011. It was deleted just before 12:00 on 4/1/2011 as I was trying to improve the page. Smm201`0 (talk) 13:29, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

Smm201`0, there is nothing personal involved with the nomination. It has nothing to do with whether a statement is documented or not. It simply reads like an advertisement which is criteria for Speedy Deletion. If an administrator agrees, it's deleted. If not, it stays and that's that. No more. No less. No ill will meant. NJZombie (talk) 13:40, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

NJZombie, what would you like to see removed so that it does not read like an advertisement? I have already removed some content that might sound promotional, but don't know if it was the material that you are concerned about.Smm201`0 (talk) 13:43, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

In my opinion, it's not so much the content you've included as it is the tone in which its written. It reads like a press release. Instead of just giving a history of the club and establishing points on why it's noteworthy, it feels at times as if it's pointing out what the club has to offer, hence the promotional tone. For example, "The sound system is high quality." Adding the admission prices and address within the article itself makes it seem that way too. It feels like I'm reading the club's webpage. If you were writing for their webpage, I'd say that you've done an awesome job and don't change a thing. I just don't think it works here. NJZombie (talk) 14:21, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

I included information about the club's role in the Asbury Park Music Scene (this was from articles since I am not part of this scene). I can take the admission prices and address out. I already removed some other general positive comments. The quality of the sound system is mentioned in an Asbury Park Press staffer's article. As I said, I have actually tried to dig for dirt in order to balance the article, but there is nothing in print and the only negative verbal comments have to do with size, decor, and the bathrooms 10 years ago. People have this weird reverence for the place. Smm201`0 (talk) 14:35, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

I guess I could add that Jeff Raspe referred to it as a "dive" (and then a "music lovers bar") in his recent Freedy Johnson interview...but I prefer print sources. :-) Smm201`0 (talk) 15:02, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

I don't even think it's a matter of providing cons in addition to the pros of the club. As I said, it's the tone and style that it's written in and not exactly whether its favorable or not. It's definitely better than it was earlier though and I'm fine with whatever an administrator decides to do at this point. As I've noted, I'm not looking to come after you or your articles. I WOULD suggest an article name change if it does remain. Perhaps The Saint (NJ nightclub) or something similar and more conventional to Wikipedia. Don't know of any other clubs here on wikipedia listed as Club Name, Town, State. NJZombie (talk) 16:05, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

"The Saint (music venue)" might work. I'll look into that. Nightclub has other connotations to me - less emphasis on music. I was just trying to make sure it wasn't lost among the other Saint pages. By the way, part of my initial reaction was due to a recent "meatpuppetry" (no relation to the band...) experience. Again, sorry. Smm201`0 (talk) 16:28, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

No worries brother. I think you mean Sock puppetry though. haha! NJZombie (talk) 16:58, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

It is difficult to sound neutral when the sources are positive. My understanding is that the goal is to report available information (positive or negative) in a neutral manner, not force positive or negative information to sound neutral. Smm201`0 (talk) 16:44, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

Clarification: The only time this page was deleted was today, after NJZombie requested it at 8:03, and Deb granted the request at about 12:00. Again, not much of an opportunity for constructive changes. I have asked Deb to officially restore the history and allow discussion, but have not heard back from her.Smm201`0 (talk) 16:35, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

It looks a lot better now. I didn't place the speedy notice, so I won't be removing that. Deb (talk) 17:11, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

As the nominator, I've removed the notice. I'd probably remove some of the less notable acts that have played there, otherwise it just reads like a name dropping list. At the very least, acts that aren't notable enough to have wiki pages could probably be removed. Just my personal view though. NJZombie (talk) 17:19, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

Ironically, that list is alphabatized in an effort to be neutral. I also haven't edited out acts I don't think are notable in order to avoid bias... Most of them do have Wiki pages...that's a good point, though. It would be a somewhat objective criterion. Useful feedback. Smm201`0 (talk) 17:30, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

The Saint subtitle, "Live, Original Music"

I try to be accomodating, and I don't want an editing war, but on this point, minor as it is, I want to point out that "live, original music" is not an evaluative statement. It would be different if I wrote "the best live, original music venue," the only place for live, original music," "great live original music," or in the case of Asbury Lanes, "The only bar that matters." But I didn't. "Live original music" is a defining quality of The Saint. That is what it offers, what it is known for, and that is what it supports through developing, hosting, and now sponsoring the Asbury Music Awards, and providing a place for new artists to play. That is why I chose those words as I developed the page based on the pages of similar venues.Smm201`0 (talk) 09:55, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

Once again, you're typing it in the nickname section of the infobox when it's no such thing. All of those qualities may be true but you don't get to change the value of the field because it sounds good to you. It's a nickname field, not a defining quality field. It's just not the place for it. As far as similar articles, I'm not sure what other articles use the nickname field as a place to add descriptors but another article with incorrect usage of the space does not set precedent to do it in other articles. NJZombie (talk) 13:10, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

Ok...if you are evenhandedly operating on the principle that only true nicknames belong in that field, then you should also delete "The only bar that matters" on the Asbury Lanes page. You have visited that page, but evidently are not yet holding it to the same standard. That is what I don't understand. Smm201`0 (talk) 17:12, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

Addressed and answered on your own talk page. No need to leave the same exact comments on three different talk pages. NJZombie (talk) 06:13, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

The Saint is closed and lost their lease & liquor license

You removed my edit reflecting the saint is closed because I had to remove a citation from GoFundMe, which Wikipedia autobanned. Please revert. The venue is closed indefinitely and that should be noted. 50.248.146.197 (talk) 15:05, 20 December 2023 (UTC)